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Thread: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Of course - if your teacher could actually lead, maybe you wouldn't have to..........
    Actually, this is sooooooo true, there are loads of "unleadable" moves taught mainly by the independants, at least the Ceroc moves are tried and tested before released


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    If the teacher is teaching from the point of view of a leader then yes. Not so easy if the teacher (for example if she's female) is teaching as a follower...
    The exception, of course - I have total respect for the female teachers much harder for them

    I've split the stuff about leadable/unleadable moves into this new thread - DavidY
    Last edited by DavidY; 4th-January-2011 at 01:51 PM.


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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I've always thought that "footwork" moves are very hard to lead. Especially if one is trying to dance at a party or club with a muggle.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I've always thought that "footwork" moves are very hard to lead. .
    what on earth is a "footwork move "

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Actually, this is sooooooo true, there are loads of "unleadable" moves taught mainly by the independants, at least the Ceroc moves are tried and tested before released
    It's not just the independents. On an average night at Ceroc, frequently at least one of the three intermediate moves taught is unleadable. The other moves are often taught without a proper lead (often using signals, which are not leads and not universal).

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    what on earth is a "footwork move "
    I'm thinking of triple step in particular. There are one or two taught by Ceroc, and Mike Ellard teaches lots. There used to be a Ceroc move called "log walking" I think.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ..... On an average night at Ceroc, frequently at least one of the three intermediate moves taught is unleadable. The other moves are often taught without a proper lead (often using signals, which are not leads and not universal).
    Really

    I truly thought all Ceroc franchisees had to use approved Ceroc moves ???? Maybe they were not executed correctly


    --ooOoo--
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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Really

    I truly thought all Ceroc franchisees had to use approved Ceroc moves ???? Maybe they were not executed correctly
    A fair number of the approved ceroc moves aren't properly leadable. And many of those that are, are not taught as properly lead moves.

    A great example is the neckbreak (and it's variations). How many women, when dancing in freestyle, recognise the difference between the different signals for an open or closed neckbreak? In my experience, almost none. If taught as led moves (which is remarkably easy), then the signal becomes irrelevant (and it looks naff doing it anyway). But if taught as approved ceroc moves, they are taught with signals, which almost no-one seems to understand in freestyle.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Actually, this is sooooooo true, there are loads of "unleadable" moves taught mainly by the independants, at least the Ceroc moves are tried and tested before released
    The Columbian is amove that was taught in a Ceroc class, you had to shout columbian to your follower so that she would then do the fancy foot work, we were never taught how to lead this move

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    The Columbian is amove that was taught in a Ceroc class, you had to shout columbian to your follower so that she would then do the fancy foot work, we were never taught how to lead this move
    And neither are followers taught how to follow a proper lead: it involves annoying technicalities like frame and tension. It's a move I can lead easily with anyone who has learnt these things elsewhere, but rarely use in ceroc because I have to man-handle the follow too much to make the move feel good.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A great example is the neckbreak

    snip

    then the signal becomes irrelevant (and it looks naff doing it anyway).
    I teach these moves without a signal. They work just fine.

    However, I always feel I need to mention that some guys have been taught the move with a signal and show people the signals so they know what's going on. However, I sometimes say that the main message communicated by the "how" or "traffic to the left" signals is that the guy has probably been taught to dance by someone who doesn't teach proper lead and follow

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    And neither are followers taught how to follow a proper lead: it involves annoying technicalities like frame and tension. It's a move I can lead easily with anyone who has learnt these things elsewhere, but rarely use in ceroc because I have to man-handle the follow too much to make the move feel good.
    I this is not the biggest problem with the Colombian. The most annoying thing is the ladies who actually break the frame to do the Columbian/grapevine when I'm leading a simple walk.

    Again, the ladies are fabulous - but let down by poor teachers

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    The Columbian is amove that was taught in a Ceroc class, you had to shout columbian to your follower so that she would then do the fancy foot work, we were never taught how to lead this move
    Maybe you weren't listening Gerry...

    One of the major points of getting both partners to step back on the left foot from a first move is to set up the basis of leading syncopated foot patterns from that position. All the time we've ever taught it we always explained this and the use of the frame and tension to lead the move.

    It makes sense to suggest saying 'Columbian' to your partner too, to help things along because many guys don't lead it very well and many ladies don't follow it very well - and some people would never get the technicalities of it no matter how many times it's explained to them - that makes it safer to lead on a dance floor, can save some embarrasment for you and/or your partner and allows people to try it out if they want too - so given all that why would anyone object to using a verbal lead if it helps??

    To suggest that all Ceroc teachers teach it badly is just wrong - that would be like saying all WCS teachers are up their own ars*s. Some may talk more about frame and connection, some may not - it just depends on what your class is like.

    The whole point of Ceroc is to get people moving and enjoying themselves and to introduce them to moves and ideas they can expand on in more specialist classes and workshops at a later date if they want to.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    To suggest that all Ceroc teachers teach it badly is just wrong - that would be like saying all WCS teachers are up their own ars*s. Some may talk more about frame and connection, some may not - it just depends on what your class is like.
    This is like saying there are local variations of the Big Mac(tm)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    It's not just the independents. On an average night at Ceroc, frequently at least one of the three intermediate moves taught is unleadable. The other moves are often taught without a proper lead (often using signals, which are not leads and not universal).
    Blimey you do talk some rubbish.. talk about making sweeping statements!

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A fair number of the approved ceroc moves aren't properly leadable. And many of those that are, are not taught as properly lead moves.
    Lets have a list then please of all the Ceroc 'approved' moves that aren't properly leadable - you say a fair number fall into this category so I would be very interested to know what they all are...

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A great example is the neckbreak (and it's variations). How many women, when dancing in freestyle, recognise the difference between the different signals for an open or closed neckbreak? In my experience, almost none. If taught as led moves (which is remarkably easy), then the signal becomes irrelevant (and it looks naff doing it anyway). But if taught as approved ceroc moves, they are taught with signals, which almost no-one seems to understand in freestyle.
    Again, just rubbish... yes, all versions of the neckbreak can be lead without signals but you are assuming a level of ability for the follow. Any new follow needs help to develop their following technique and a clear indication as to where she may be lead next by use of a clear signal helps this process - which would also go along with the advice not to pre-empt a lead once they understand the shape of a move. You also contradict yourself - if all approved versions of the neckbreak are taught in Ceroc classes with the approved signals why then would they not recognize them in freestyle??

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    And neither are followers taught how to follow a proper lead: it involves annoying technicalities like frame and tension. It's a move I can lead easily with anyone who has learnt these things elsewhere, but rarely use in ceroc because I have to man-handle the follow too much to make the move feel good.
    LOL... of course all independents teach it well and all Ceroc teachers haven't got a clue. We never teach about frame and connection in step backs or in any of the moves we teach...

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Lets have a list then please of all the Ceroc 'approved' moves that aren't properly leadable - you say a fair number fall into this category so I would be very interested to know what they all are...
    Given you've rejected the two examples because you don't think they're right - I see little point in giving others (I'll expect you to assert that they are wrong too - and largely ignore the substance of what I say). I wasn't the one who raised the issue of what are an are not approved moves: I have no idea. I was merely commenting on moves I've been taught in intermediate ceroc classes. You may consider my experience "rubbish" but, given you don't know me, that's not based on any actual knowledge of my experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Again, just rubbish... yes, all versions of the neckbreak can be lead without signals but you are assuming a level of ability for the follow.
    I'm not assuming anything. I was commenting specifically on how the moves have been taught to me in ceroc classes. That is with strong emphasis on signals, but without much comment on how to lead/follow the move. The point is that people cannot be expected to acquire knowledge if it's not taught. Again, in my experience of ceroc classes, the lead and follow for the majority of moves is not taught properly. You say you do teach it (and I suspect you actually do), then you are not representative of most of the ceroc teachers and classes I've been to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    if all approved versions of the neckbreak are taught in Ceroc classes with the approved signals why then would they not recognize them in freestyle??
    Just because something is taught doesn't mean it's learnt - which is one of my major complaints with teaching signals. Again, I was speaking from my experience: most follows I've danced with either don't know or don't need the signals, regardless of their level of ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    of course all independents teach it well and all Ceroc teachers haven't got a clue. We never teach about frame and connection in step backs or in any of the moves we teach...
    I never made any comment about how independents teach, I merely said that ceroc is guilty of teaching moves that are either unleadable or (more commonly) rely on signals rather than leading. I did say that frame and connection are not taught at ceroc. Again, this is based on my experience. These elements are occasionally drawn into classes, but have not been included in many cases where they are important to making the move work. I can't comment with any experience on what and how you teach, as I've only seen one or two of your classes.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332
    And neither are followers taught how to follow a proper lead: it involves annoying technicalities like frame and tension.
    annoying technicalities like frame and tension


    --ooOoo--
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    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    It's not just the independents. On an average night at Ceroc, frequently at least one of the three intermediate moves taught is unleadable. The other moves are often taught without a proper lead (often using signals, which are not leads and not universal).
    Originally posted by geoff322 A fair number of the approved ceroc moves aren't properly leadable. And many of those that are, are not taught as properly lead moves.
    Originally Posted by Gerry
    The Columbian
    Originally posted by geoff332
    And neither are followers taught how to follow a proper lead: it involves annoying technicalities like frame and tension. , It's a move....I....rarely use in ceroc because I have to man-handle the follow too much to make the move feel good.
    I wonder where the problem lies?

    Part of the skill in leading is to choose what moves to lead and leading a Columbian is a move that I would say comes into the category only lead when confident that the follower will be able to deal with it. You will find when led in these circumstances, in Ceroc, the follower does follow. I would suggest that manhandling a follower is not a good technique either and when you talk about feeling good I aasume you are talking about feeling good to yourself because I can't imagine anybody who thinks any follower is going to feel good by being man handled.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gerry
    The Columbian

    Originally posted by geoff332
    It's a move I can lead easily with anyone who has learnt these things elsewhere
    Interesting.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I wonder where the problem lies?
    The problem lies in the lack of frame in the follower (in this case - there are plenty of others where my leading is the problem). The columbian is actually a pretty easy move. But it does require some basic technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I would suggest that manhandling a follower is not a good technique
    It's a terrible technique and why I don't use the move as much as I would like to. As I said, I can lead anyone I want through it, but it generally doesn't work as well.

    The key factor I notice is the delay in following the lead - caused by a lack of a frame. That means the follow is picking up my body movement, recognising that as the 'lead' for a columbian and then doing the appropriate footwork. That isn't really following at all and usually puts the two people out of synch. And to lead this way, I find I need to over-accentuate the lead, which is bad leading that I don't enjoy.

    With the 'good' dancers, it's a completely different feeling. There, simply turning my body and opening/closing my frame directly moves the follow's frame, which gives the move the appropriate shape, it keeps one another in synch and both looks and feels better for both of us.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A fair number of the approved ceroc moves aren't properly leadable. And many of those that are, are not taught as properly lead moves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Lets have a list then please of all the Ceroc 'approved' moves that aren't properly leadable - you say a fair number fall into this category so I would be very interested to know what they all are...
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Again, just rubbish... yes, all versions of the neckbreak can be lead without signals but you are assuming a level of ability for the follow.
    This bothered me for many years until I finally realised the problem comes from a fundamental difference in the meaning of “leadable”.

    Pretty much any intermediate follower should be able to follow the beginner moves.

    Someone who’s been attending classes for about a year should be able to follow the Classic Intermediate moves because they're regulary covered.

    However this leaves all the other intermediate moves.

    Some are just a cut and paste of elements from beginner moves and classic intermediate moves and so will also usually work on the above 1 year old follower.

    The rest however have varying degrees of intuitiveness and so to varying degrees require the follower to have actually learned the move in class or at least have experienced it a few times in freestyle. The Columbian is an obvious example. Saying “Columbian” won’t help in the least if the follower has never experienced it.

    This led me to the distinct feeling that usually in a normal intermediate class, one move will work fine (the classic) one – ie I can lead that on a one year old intermediate in any Ceroc venue in the country. One move will be leadable with a bit of practice / tweaking / most of the time (either a cut and paste or an intuitive one) and one is unleadable in freestyle unless the follower actually knows it, ie not a great idea if I’m visiting a new venue.

    It also explains why some moves are leadable in certain venues – simply put the women there have learned them (and / or there are leaders who lead them regularly). A pretty common problem stemming from this is when dips / drops are taught, intermediate women have a tendency to backlead themselves into them in the freestyle after the class to anything that resembles the beginning of the move they learned

    So yes, Rocky is right. All the Ceroc class moves are leadable, provided both the leader and follower learn them. (By the same token, every move you see in a show choreography is "leadable".) They may require varying degrees of practice in order to actually execute and you may need to learn them in class more than once before this happens.

    However by the definition of leadable being that you can lead it on a 1 year old intermediate follower in any venue in the country, then many are not. In my experience the second definition is what social leaders tend to mean, not Rocky's and I believe is what's causing the confusion here.

    This also explains why a teacher may need 5 mins to go through the moves with their demo - to cover the ones which aren't either classic , cut and paste or intuitive.

    NB the above gets a bit fuzzy when you take into account followers who have dance experience from other background eg a follower who’s done tango will probably be able to follow a Columbian if you lead it, but won’t have a clue if you say “Columbian” to her.

    (I also have a category of “this could involve injury if not led / followed properly” moves I avoid, but that’s me.)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    So yes, Rocky is right. All the Ceroc class moves are leadable, provided both the leader and follower learn them. (By the same token, every move you see in a show choreography is "leadable".)
    That possibly gets to the heart of the problem. If a move is only leadable if the follow knows it, then I don't think it's actually being led properly. And, without wanting to put words in his mouth, I don't think Rocky was saying that either (he's more than capable of correcting me if I'm wrong).

    I don't want a follow to do a first move because they think they've recognised me leading a first move and therefore do that move. I want them to step forward, because I lead the step forward; turn out because I've led a turn out; step back because I've not yet stopped them moving along the slot; then rest on that foot because I have arrested their movement. The reason I want a follow to do this is because it then lets me change those elements whenever I feel like it (and, when it works well, neither of us has to work that hard; it's easy and it flows).

    In my view, the whole point of learning moves is to learn the elements of the movement (a subtle distinction, I realise). I want to learn how to lead those elements and I want a follow to learn how to follow/execute those elements. Moves are important - critical, in fact - as vehicles for learning. But they are not the end goal.

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