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Thread: New year, new dance...(apparently)

  1. #161
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    I think the point is that pivoting on your right foot is really easy if the step before is a step back on the left. Your weight shifts from L to R in the pivot.

    If your weight is already on the R foot because you stepped back on it, it's harder to move forward to a pivot which is also on the R foot.
    Why would you need to move the weight on your right foot? You step back on your right and then step around to face your partner on the left to start the rotation whilst pivoting on your right.

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    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I planned to arrive with enough time to see some of the teaching of the new beginner moves last night. However, the evening had been re-timed to make space for the new format. I get 2-3 emails from the franchise in question every week which never mentioned this and the website still shows the old times too .

    Result was that I only saw a tiny bit of teaching.

    Last night's beginner moves:

    • Basic
    • Travelling return
    • Winder

    I'm hopeless at describing moves in words, but here goes ...

    The teacher (lead) wasn't moving his feet at all in the Basic, not lifting his heels nor pivoting, so maybe that's a slight change to the In+Out.

    The "Winder" is different to the Aussie move of the same name. It starts like a basket, but at the point where the lead+follow step back in basket hold (lead back on right foot), the lead releases the left hand and un-wraps the follower along the slot, with the lead turning 90deg CW to face. A couple of different endings were shown to get back to the start, I don't know which was the official version. (An Aussie winder is a UK swizzle)

    The advanced lesson was billed as only being 5 mins long. The actual move was at the harder end of what has previously been taught in the intermediate classes. The teaching was entirely of the mechanics of the move, with no mention of technique.

    FM.

  3. #163
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Imagine someone goes to a Ceroc venue and learns a 'basic'. They then find out about the broader MJ scene, go to an independent venue, and the teacher starts to teach a 'basic'.

    Life just got confusing. This isn't going to help the absolute beginners.
    Ahem ... my recollection is that Ceroc named the moves first and then the 'me-too' associations tried to change the names so that they could say that they were'nt teaching Ceroc. The same with the names 'Modern Jive' and 'French Jive', these were constructs to get away form being Ceroc. As I know the associtaion you're referring to I remeber that while I taught for them I was given ther teachers moves ... which were photocopies of the CTA teachers moves with the CTA bit badly tippexed out and new move names scrawled over the original Ceroc names

    Ceroc has not always been a shinning beacon on truth and virtue but I think the blame for different names and similar confusion can be laid elsewhere. While I think of it ... the LeRoc version of the 1st move is very different to the Ceroc way. No blame, no evil ... just two different ways of doing the move. Yer pays yer money, yer takes yer choice.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    the LeRoc version of the 1st move is very different to the Ceroc way. No blame, no evil ... just two different ways of doing the move. Yer pays yer money, yer takes yer choice.
    I think you will find that the LeRoc Federation has more than one way of doing the First Move. That's because there's two versions of the footwork. There's the original LeRoc with the lady stepping back left on the one and then tapping right to keep the weight on the left foot for 2 beats. Then there the LeRoc approved "Step LeRoc" where the lady steps on every beat starting with the right on the one.

  5. #165
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think you will find that the LeRoc Federation has more than one way of doing the First Move. That's because there's two versions of the footwork. There's the original LeRoc with the lady stepping back left on the one and then tapping right to keep the weight on the left foot for 2 beats. Then there the LeRoc approved "Step LeRoc" where the lady steps on every beat starting with the right on the one.
    My goodness, that sounds a little confusing, I wonder what Cedric will have to say about that...

  6. #166
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think you will find that the LeRoc Federation has
    ... what? Ur? Sorry, I must have dozed off there for a second, I can't imagine why....

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Hmm, not sure I've ever been to a 'Leroc' taught class.

    I agree with David Bailey that Ceroc has no obligation to help anybody else, and I do my best to cross-pollinate between Ceroc venues and independent ones - I go to both, and enjoy learning and dancing at both.

    I just get frustrated at some of the opaqueness of the Modern Jive scene and the behaviours of some of the operators (whatever their brand).

    Off to a Ceroc class I haven't been to before tomorrow night to see the new moves first hand

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    My goodness, that sounds a little confusing, I wonder what Cedric will have to say about that...
    I agree about the confusion. However, the LeRoc Federation are a broad church and look for consistency from the teacher. So long as what is being taught in the lesson is consistent it's considered OK.

    The above means that you can go to two different LeRoc classes and learn two different dances. They are similar, but not the same. To add to the confusion there are also classes who have nothing to do with the LeRoc Federation which call themselves LeRoc!

    Speaking for myself, not the LeRoc Federation, I think that students should be able to move between classes teaching a dance with the same name and still learn the same dance. This works well for Ceroc and I mostly teach the same dance as Ceroc - although I probably don't use all the same names for the moves.

    I'm saying 'mostly' because I haven't had time to go to a Ceroc class for a while.
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 6th-January-2011 at 12:36 PM.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    , I think that students should be able to move between classes teaching a dance with the same name and still learn the same dance. .
    Any one going to more than one class, will quickly realise there is more than one way to skin a cat.
    The great thing about MJ is, there are few absolute rules, apart from, shower, smile and it's impolite to refuse a dance

    People who have only been taught in Leroc classes seem to have no problem at Ceroc freestyles and visa verse

    I have never heard of any one giving up MJ, because it was too difficult to learn
    Last edited by philsmove; 6th-January-2011 at 12:50 PM.

  10. #170
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Not long home from tonight's class. It was interesting.

    Four moves taught:
    - basic spin : in-out twice, then drop the follower's right hand on the second 'out', leaving a right-to-left hold. Wrap in as for a lean, but step past the follower letting go then turn to face. I actually like this as a beginner move, it teaches compression/tension and the wrap part is useful for lots of other moves.
    - man spin : as per man spin everywhere
    - shoulder spin (I think, can't remember if that's the right name) : start like a shoulder drop (on a return, as the follower comes round to face the lead does a semi-circle clockwise and puts his right hand on his right shoulder) (with the follower's left hand still hopefully attached). Next count, the lead does another quarter-turn clockwise, pushes out and down towards the follower to make her step back, then pulls her back past his back and does a 3/4 turn anti-clockwise to face her. Return if required. This one sounds complicated but is very simple to lead, and I think it works better than the shoulder drop in that it encourages the follower not to let go
    - wrap : as described above. A follower did tell me it was a 'round the world' with one fewer clockwise turn for the follower (although testing with her, I found it actually easier to lead with that turn in - gave the move better balance and less of a rush). The offered left hand for the return is another nice addition to the beginner repertoire, that's something I find a lot of intermediate dancers either don't spot or don't know what to do with, so getting them used to it up front will introduce lots of opportunities

    Overall it was a bit rushed - four moves, lots of new beginners, three new (or at least newly named) moves for the non-beginners all contributed, but none of that was unexpected.

    The biggest issue was oddly one of fitness. That specific routine had a lot of moving around in it, for the lead and the follower, and as a lead I found myself moving a lot more than normal for a beginner class to compensate for some partners' lack of mobility (some ladies just can't move due to age or other issues, some don't know they need to, some are just lazy. Yes, girl with nice legs and that bewitching smile, you. Flirt all you like but move when you're dancing damnit). Four position swaps and a lot of getting off the slot out of the way, in addition to the in/out movements...

    The intermediate class was fairly normal. The advanced move wasn't easy, although it wasn't excessively hard - a couple that dance regularly could include it with ease. I'm sure a good lead could lead it on followers that didn't attend the class too, but I couldn't. Yet. I may try...

    Move names aside, it's nice to do something different. Nothing there that wont fit nicely into the dancing people already do, and more variety is always nice.

  11. #171
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Not long home from tonight's class.
    Me too, and largely the same routine.
    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Four moves taught:
    - basic spin : in-out twice, then drop the follower's right hand on the second 'out', leaving a right-to-left hold. Wrap in as for a lean, but step past the follower letting go then turn to face.
    I'd describe this as like the start of a Wurlitzer (which used to be a Beginners' Move, many moons ago) as it was taught where I was. The leader uses a palm-to-palm hold with the leader's left palm to the follower's right. Then push back using that, but unlike the Wurlitzer, both partners stay square to each other. Then I would lead my partner past my right hand side changing places - we didn't really do a wrap in at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    - shoulder spin (I think, can't remember if that's the right name)
    Shoulder Spring, I believe. I also like this one - it feels more leadable than the old shoulder drop.
    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    - wrap : as described above.
    Interestingly we didn't do that one...
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Me too, and largely the same routine.I'd describe this as like the start of a Wurlitzer (which used to be a Beginners' Move, many moons ago) as it was taught where I was. The leader uses a palm-to-palm hold with the leader's left palm to the follower's right. Then push back using that, but unlike the Wurlitzer, both partners stay square to each other. Then I would lead my partner past my right hand side changing places - we didn't really do a wrap in at all.
    Ah, I was taught the Wurlitzer (by a Ceroc teacher) as a flick-spin on the spot, rather than a travelling spin past your right-hand side (which is a better way of describing what I'd called a wrap-but-let-go-and-go-past).

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Shoulder Spring, I believe.
    That's the one! Knew I'd got it wrong..

  13. #173
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Ah, I was taught the Wurlitzer (by a Ceroc teacher) as a flick-spin on the spot, rather than a travelling spin past your right-hand side (which is a better way of describing what I'd called a wrap-but-let-go-and-go-past).
    Yes it is. It's just the start of the Wurlitzer and the start of the "Spin" which are the same (not counting the "Basic" bit). As you say the Wurlitzer involves spinning the follower on the spot, which is different to the travelling bit of the "Spin".
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Why would you need to move the weight on your right foot? You step back on your right and then step around to face your partner on the left to start the rotation whilst pivoting on your right.
    Because it's easier (for me anyway). I tried it tonight and these moves still seem a lot easier from the "old" footwork. I think you're suggesting putting an extra left in before putting the weight on the right to pivot on it, and although I could do it, it seemed more cumbersome that way.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Registered User fandangle's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I attended one of these "new" classes last night and I can recognise some of the moves from other people's previous descriptions. I sat out the beginner class in order to watch how people were coping. It was obvious to me that some absolute beginners were finding it very difficult. I can understand that because there was no introduction to how to hold hands for example, and none of the explanation that normally precedes a beginner class. The moves themselves, although not too difficult from an intermediate point of view, certainly were a lot for a beginner to take on board. One thing that occurred to me after the lesson - when I asked a beginner to dance, all I could do was show her the "old" moves which got her "up and running" so to speak in no time whereas I don't think this "new" teaching will give beginners much confidence until they have attended quite a few classes. There seemed to be so much that wasn't explained about why the teachers were doing what they did. In my view, it's going to put quite a few people off Jiving if they are beginners. The "advanced" move, although interesting, was one i already knew and it was a bit strange to have the intermediate class end, one track get played and then the "advanced" class started while those that didn't feel capapble of doing it had to sit out for 10 minutes or so. I don't quite understand why they don't tack the "advanced" move onto the end of the intermediate class anyway. Most people will then give it a go rather than feeling too intimidated to go back on the floor after the single track. I'm not sure where all this will be going as it's going to take quite some time for a significant "installed base" of Jivers taught the "new" way to come through and all the "old timers" will still be doing things the way they have always done. Just my thoughts.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by fandangle View Post
    The "advanced" move, although interesting, was one i already knew and it was a bit strange to have the intermediate class end, one track get played and then the "advanced" class started while those that didn't feel capapble of doing it had to sit out for 10 minutes or so. I don't quite understand why they don't tack the "advanced" move onto the end of the intermediate class anyway. Most people will then give it a go rather than feeling too intimidated to go back on the floor after the single track.
    One of the major problems with trying to do advanced moves is that too many dancers who are not advanced try and do them, fail, then complain that the move was too hard leading to a dumbing down of the move.

    For your other comments, I could make the same comment on the 'advanced' move that was taught. It was mostly an extended intermediate move, rather than actually advanced. The early comments on teaching the basic mechanics of the move, rather than the actual technique, are quite apt.

    In this specific case, the move required an overturn into a barrier. In freestyle, most of the follows stopped themselves when they were facing the lead, despite the lead continuing through to let the overturn continue. How either the lead or follow should handle this wasn't covered in the class at all.

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    New moves

    So, mostly because I'm lazy and I never go to MJ classes anymore (not because I think I'm too good , just because I'm concentrating on Lindy); Can anyone explain what all the fuss is about?
    What are the new beginner moves that Ceroc are introducing?

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    Re: New moves

    Good call Gav.

    Admittedly I have been out of the Ceroc/MJ scene for a while, but always thought that there were about 18-20 basic moves (weren't there foot cards that could be purchased), on which most of the intermediate moves were based.

    Occasionally a new intermediate move would crop up. There was a saying that it didn't matter if you did a move wrong you'd probably invented a new one.

    But someone on a recent thread even said that the "First Move" (to my "old fashioned" way of thinking a standard), is not longer taught as a beginners move.

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    Re: New moves

    The 19 beginnersmoves have been whittled down to 11 moves.

    4 are still old moves with the remaining 7 being new moves.

    Not done them all yet so can't list names etc.

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    Re: New moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    4 are still old moves with the remaining 7 being new moves.
    Blimey I will need re-training. Back to the beginners then. Not bad after 18 years.

    Reminds me of a mate who, about 2 months before his finals decided to change degree. But in order to do his new course had to have a particular O' level.

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