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Thread: New year, new dance...(apparently)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quite often actually Andy.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    If the teacher is teaching from the point of view of a leader then yes. Not so easy if the teacher (for example if she's female) is teaching as a follower...
    Fair point. Mine was a pretty silly comment.

    I suppose these days, I'm unaccustomed to the teacher + demo model - it's a long time since I've taken a class that worked on that basis.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Back on topic....

    I went to a "new format" class last night:
    • The "In and Out" is now renamed the "Basic". This makes a lot of sense to me as the whole compression and tension in the in and out is fairly fundamental - it's noticeably absent in the odd cases when a total beginner turns up to a freestyle without ever doing a class.
    • The "High First Move" has an easier body alignment (the lead is 90 degrees clockwise compared to the old one) but also described as a step back on right where the old one has a step back on the left. I found this tricky as I needed to have an extra weight change (or take one out) to get the weight on the correct foot
    • The new "Wrap" move is quite interesting. Someone reckoned it was similar to something previously called the Around the World but I can't remember if this is right. Basically the lead stays facing the same way and the follower comes clockwise around the leader. Interestingly the last section has the leader's right hand holding the follower's left, with the leader's left hand offered high for a travelling return.
    • At the end of the intermediate class, the routine is danced through to a whole track, then people who've been dancing 6 months are invited to stay for an "Advanced" move. Without commenting on the move, it did take up quite a lot of time (especially as people need to re-partner up).
    Love dance, will travel

  4. #144
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I've moved the stuff about leadable/unleadable moves into a new thread here
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    I've moved the stuff about leadable/unleadable moves into a new thread here
    You evil tyrannical moderating monster you.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    The "In and Out" is now renamed the "Basic". This makes a lot of sense to me as the whole compression and tension in the in and out is fairly fundamental - it's noticeably absent in the odd cases when a total beginner turns up to a freestyle without ever doing a class.
    Seems reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    The "High First Move" has an easier body alignment (the lead is 90 degrees clockwise compared to the old one) but also described as a step back on right where the old one has a step back on the left. I found this tricky as I needed to have an extra weight change (or take one out) to get the weight on the correct foot
    Ah, right, I get you. That makes more sense than the way the Ceroc teacher was trying to explain it to me on New Years Eve.

    Interesting idea, I'll give it a go - but I suspect I'd stick with a West Manhatten entrance at that stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    The new "Wrap" move is quite interesting. Someone reckoned it was similar to something previously called the Around the World but I can't remember if this is right. Basically the lead stays facing the same way and the follower comes clockwise around the leader.
    So it's a rotating wrap, basically?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    At the end of the intermediate class, the routine is danced through to a whole track, then people who've been dancing 6 months are invited to stay for an "Advanced" move. Without commenting on the move, it did take up quite a lot of time (especially as people need to re-partner up).
    Ah, so effectively there's a mini-advanced class then?

    P.S. Go on, comment on the move, I dare you.

  6. #146
    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post

    The "High First Move" has an easier body alignment (the lead is 90 degrees clockwise compared to the old one) but also described as a step back on right where the old one has a step back on the left. I found this tricky as I needed to have an extra weight change (or take one out) to get the weight on the correct foot
    Oh goody, goody, gumdrops! My good sense has prevailed and finally been recognised! I long ago decided to rebel and step back right to avoid that awkward contra-rotation of shoulders versus hips. Done this way, the move opens up and flows more smoothly. (As in athletics, so in dance should the body parts work harmoniously together.)

    It never causes me, or my partner, any timing problems in freestyle but, of course, can in classes where the teacher spells out specific footwork. That little problem should now disappear.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    So with this 'new' first move am I correct in thinking that the step back being referred to is the one after turning the follower out to the side? If so, doesn't the lead being on their RF at that stage make leading penguins/pivots or first move walkthroughs and the like harder to accomplish?

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    So with this 'new' first move am I correct in thinking that the step back being referred to is the one after turning the follower out to the side?
    Yes it's the one that happens as the follower is turned out through 180 degrees from being hip-to-hip.
    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    If so, doesn't the lead being on their RF at that stage make leading penguins/pivots or first move walkthroughs and the like harder to accomplish?
    I thought that too.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post


    • The "In and Out" is now renamed the "Basic". This makes a lot of sense to me as the whole compression and tension in the in and out is fairly fundamental - it's noticeably absent in the odd cases when a total beginner turns up to a freestyle without ever doing a class.
    I think that's unfortunate, bordering on obnoxious. The Ceroc 'First Move' (last year's version) is taught at a lot of independent MJ venues as the 'Basic' (or sometimes the 'First Move Basic').

    I know Ceroc like to pretend they don't do MJ but there's no need to explicitly cause confusion

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    .............I know Ceroc like to pretend they don't do MJ ...........
    what do they do ?


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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Ah, so effectively there's a mini-advanced class then?

    P.S. Go on, comment on the move, I dare you.
    With one thing and another I missed the start of the Intermediates class so didn't actually do the move and wasn't fully paying attention. From what I can remember it was more about complex twisty turny stuff and less about technique, lead & follow and suchlike.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    I know Ceroc like to pretend they don't do MJ but there's no need to explicitly cause confusion
    Would it cause confusion? Is a dancer at a Ceroc class likely to think they are at an independant MJ class? I would expect moves between different organisations to have different names. Salsa has a "Basic" as well, which is quite different, they also have moves that are similar to Ceroc/MJ moves, but have different names. If the dancers are following the teacher's instructions on how to perform the move, I don't see how there would be any confusion. Besides, how much does it really matter what the move's called? It's just a point of reference after all. Show me how to lead it, if I like it, I'll use it, I don't need to know what it's called.
    Last edited by daveb9000; 5th-January-2011 at 12:43 AM. Reason: typo

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Imagine someone goes to a Ceroc venue and learns a 'basic'. They then find out about the broader MJ scene, go to an independent venue, and the teacher starts to teach a 'basic'.

    Life just got confusing. This isn't going to help the absolute beginners.

    Sure, it's a fairly minor matter, but added to the terrible reputation of Ceroc amongst other dance styles it just doesn't help - Salsa dancing friends already get confused by 'Ceroc' versus 'Modern Jive'. They think Ceroc is a dance style and hate it because it's trademarked and they can't teach it. Successful marketing by Ceroc, but not healthy for MJ as a whole.

    More interesting, a friend that's learning MJ at an independent doesn't want to go to one of the three Ceroc venues she drives past to get to the independent because she's "learning Modern Jive, not Ceroc".

    (I'm taking her to a Ceroc masked ball later in the month, so she'll get a membership card and find out she knows lots of the moves already, so that'll help there at least)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    They think Ceroc is a dance style and hate it because it's trademarked and they can't teach it.
    James Cronin tried for years to sue Nikki Haslam when she started Ceroc in Autralia. But failed because she co-owned the trademark. He was also unsuccessful in trying to sue several other rival MJ clubs. But so long as they did not use Ceroc names for the moves and did not call themselves Ceroc he could not. You cannot patent a dance step only the name of the step.

    I think there was a similar case years ago when Intel tried to sue a company that called their computer a 586. Intel failed because numbers cannot be patented.
    Last edited by DavidY; 5th-January-2011 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Fixed quote

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    From what I can remember it was more about complex twisty turny stuff and less about technique, lead & follow and suchlike.
    Shocked am I.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Imagine someone goes to a Ceroc venue and learns a 'basic'. They then find out about the broader MJ scene, go to an independent venue, and the teacher starts to teach a 'basic'.

    Life just got confusing. This isn't going to help the absolute beginners.
    I don't think Ceroc have an obligation to help beginners who go to competitor venues - they can call the moves whatever they want.

    I also think the in-and-out is a better "basic" than the First Move.

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Sure, it's a fairly minor matter, but added to the terrible reputation of Ceroc amongst other dance styles it just doesn't help - Salsa dancing friends already get confused by 'Ceroc' versus 'Modern Jive'. They think Ceroc is a dance style and hate it because it's trademarked and they can't teach it. Successful marketing by Ceroc, but not healthy for MJ as a whole.
    You could say the same about many brands which become synonymous with the product - Aspirin, Hoover, etc.

    Dyson didn't complain because he couldn't call his products "Hoovers" - he simply invented a superior product and that itself became a strong brand. The Ceroc organisation does not have any obligation to help independents teach Modern Jive.

    And if your friends want to teach Modern Jive, five minutes of research on the internet should tell them that they can quite easily teach "LeRoc" with no branding or copyright issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    More interesting, a friend that's learning MJ at an independent doesn't want to go to one of the three Ceroc venues she drives past to get to the independent because she's "learning Modern Jive, not Ceroc".
    Your friend is misinformed. And she should go to the venue with the best teachers, not because of some irrational prejudice against brands.

  17. #157
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Your friend is misinformed. And she should go to the venue with the best teachers, not because of some irrational prejudice against brands.
    That said, I'm all in favour of rational prejudice against Ceroc.

    (Well, you wouldn't want to think I've gone soft)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    With one thing and another I missed the start of the Intermediates class so didn't actually do the move and wasn't fully paying attention. From what I can remember it was more about complex twisty turny stuff and less about technique, lead & follow and suchlike.
    That's interesting. My local independant, Mojive, back when it was big, tried the "advanced move at the end of the intermediate lesson" thing about half a dozen years ago. (Honest! they did ).

    The result was not to impressive. Basically the dozen or so teachers fell into two groups, those that defaulted to uber-twisty moves like Double Pretzels (God, the horror), and those that defaulted to slightly lesser done, but more dramatic moves like drops. Nobody taught anything really 'advanced' as that takes advanced teachers... and truly, how many of those are there really in the Ceroc/MJ world ?

    In the case of Mojive, people were enthusiastic at the start, but once they realized it was really just lesser done intermediate stuff rebadged as 'advanced', it kinda lost it's sparkle. In the end the whole thing was quietly dropped.

    I think there were a number of problems. In general the teachers weren't really capable of properly teaching even the kind of intermediate+ moves that did get taught. At a certain point, technique does become more important even in MJ. Also, with no real minimum standard requirement, many of the dancers weren't up to it as well, so effectively a lot of inexperienced dancers started doing loads more drops and twisty moves. You can imagine the effect of that. A lot of ladies complaining about their arms being unscrewed .

    That's history tho, it will be interesting to watch this new attempt develop.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    So with this 'new' first move am I correct in thinking that the step back being referred to is the one after turning the follower out to the side? If so, doesn't the lead being on their RF at that stage make leading penguins/pivots or first move walkthroughs and the like harder to accomplish?
    Hmm... well I always lead a penguin from a travelling return or from a close hold but I don't see a problem with leading it from the new 1st move (assuming they pivot on their right foot and lead their penguins in a clockwise rotation).

    As for a walk through (assuming we are talking about the same move which looks a bit like a whip?) Well, we've always taught those with the guy pivoting on the right foot anyway and turning to face before pulling back through to change places.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Hmm... well I always lead a penguin from a travelling return or from a close hold but I don't see a problem with leading it from the new 1st move (assuming they pivot on their right foot and lead their penguins in a clockwise rotation).

    As for a walk through (assuming we are talking about the same move which looks a bit like a whip?) Well, we've always taught those with the guy pivoting on the right foot anyway and turning to face before pulling back through to change places.
    I think the point is that pivoting on your right foot is really easy if the step before is a step back on the left. Your weight shifts from L to R in the pivot.

    If your weight is already on the R foot because you stepped back on it, it's harder to move forward to a pivot which is also on the R foot.
    Love dance, will travel

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