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Thread: New year, new dance...(apparently)

  1. #101
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think you'd have to be very quick on your feet to completely clear the lady's line of dance in a way that allowed her to step straight forward. It would be more like a game of chicken with constant collisions.
    You don't have to be quick on your feet at all to do this. It's the standard for a lot of Lindy moves (and probably a lot of WCS ones also) - on many moves, for example, I lead my partner straight towards me on 1, and start to move out of her way on 2 (some teachers teach that you start to move out of the way on 1, as you lead her towards you, but for various reasons, I prefer the first method). The reason I say I don't have to be quick on my feet is that it's completely planned - I lead my partner expecting to move out her way, and knowing exactly when and how I will do so - which gets rid of the 'chicken' aspect that you're talking about. It's very important that the follower goes straight - in a move like the swingout (Lindy Turn), if she starts to step around the lead, it actually makes the move a lot harder to execute well.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Ermm ok lets think back,

    Dan baines hip hop styling comp at ceroc champs then lots of workshops and new moves after.

    Further back simon selmon blues ,

    further forward nigel and Nina Lindy influence

    Victor and Lydia salsa influence

    bit further Clayton and janine showdances

    Phil and Yuko latin

    Amir Tango / Jango

    each has then moved down into every day teachers either straight copy of styles and moves or variations of.
    thats why i think this has been the norm for years.
    Well, of course. But none of these have been as influential in terms of dance teaching to the scene as their equivalents in other dances. And this is largely because Ceroc acts as a break on innovation.

    If the dominant-by-far organisation does not allow street-level innovation, if it only allows change to be imposed by top-down design, then this will definitely slow down the evolutions and adoption of new styles. That's all I'm trying to say.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    REALLY!!!!! since when, last time we had a conversation you thought the idea of smooth jive or anything not circular was a waste of time. i think that was the start of this year.

    What was the sudden change in heart.
    You must have me confused with someone else - or is that sarcasm?

    I think there is some confusion between rotating moves and cross-body moves done in a way that causes the slot to move anti-clockwise around the clock.

    I've never taught anything but a dance where the guy gets off the lady's line of dance in cross-body leads. I do teach walkaround moves like the overhead walk where the rotation is intentional. I do not teach cross-body moves in a way that would encourage the anti-clockwise rotating slot.

  4. #104
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, of course. But none of these have been as influential in terms of dance teaching to the scene as their equivalents in other dances. And this is largely because Ceroc acts as a break on innovation.

    If the dominant-by-far organisation does not allow street-level innovation, if it only allows change to be imposed by top-down design, then this will definitely slow down the evolutions and adoption of new styles. That's all I'm trying to say.
    well thats how it may look to the outside but when i was part of Ceroc they used to hold a group get together where the sharing of new moves was encouraged and applauded. I believe Mark Forster and Paul Harris used to enter lots of new moves.

    Also they would invite outside teachers to show new styles and teaching technics,

    So once again not sure this is something new, just more public.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think you'd have to be very quick on your feet to completely clear the lady's line of dance in a way that allowed her to step straight forward. It would be more like a game of chicken with constant collisions..
    Andy
    Its about expectations / rules within the dance. If the follower knows that they have to move up and down the slot, it is much easier for the leader to then get of the slot. I am not and never will be that quick on my feet and i am able to lead some one down the slot and get of their line of dance while dancing WCS but unfortunately as I have never been taught this in MJ I find my dance is totally circular

  6. #106
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    well thats how it may look to the outside
    It's how it looks to me. Both as a customer, and as someone with some years' experience of seeing how other social dance scenes evolve, yes.

    If you look at salsa, for example, the whole "cross-body lead" style pretty much swept across the UK scene quickly. In a period of about 1-2 years around 2000, almost every teacher had switched to offering classes in it. Similarly, the bachata classes took off around 2005 (ish), equally quickly. I can't think of a single MJ-wide change which is as significant to the teaching and the dancing as either of those two were to salsa.

    But both of those changes happened from the bottom up; they weren't imposed, they just happened because the scene had the freedom to innovate quickly. There was no "book of moves" to adhere to. Teachers individually just reacted to what local dancers wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    but when i was part of Ceroc they used to hold a group get together where the sharing of new moves was encouraged and applauded. I believe Mark Forster and Paul Harris used to enter lots of new moves.
    New moves are pretty much irrelevant to the style of dancing or teaching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Also they would invite outside teachers to show new styles and teaching technics,
    It'd be nice to hear a single example of a significant style / technique change which got introduced to Ceroc classes as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    So once again not sure this is something new, just more public.
    Well, at the moment it's just a PR exercise to get the punters in, over the New Year.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    It's how it looks to me. Both as a customer, and as someone with some years' experience of seeing how other social dance scenes evolve, yes.

    If you look at salsa, for example, the whole "cross-body lead" style pretty much swept across the UK scene quickly. In a period of about 1-2 years around 2000, almost every teacher had switched to offering classes in it. Similarly, the bachata classes took off around 2005 (ish), equally quickly. I can't think of a single MJ-wide change which is as significant to the teaching and the dancing as either of those two were to salsa.

    But both of those changes happened from the bottom up; they weren't imposed, they just happened because the scene had the freedom to innovate quickly. There was no "book of moves" to adhere to. Teachers individually just reacted to what local dancers wanted.
    Well i was teaching salsa at that time for Romario who ran all of the London clubs. there were set moves he wanted taught at the begginers classes and intermediates so again you are wrong, or just miss informed.

    I also did some teaching for jules who ran the clubs in the berkshire area he was very influenced by what Romario was doing and hence ran his clubs the same.

    Also at the Salsa congress the champs of that year would sowcase the demos that they had won with and low and behold everyone was teaching the same thing for the next 6 months.

    this was from some 15 years ago but just to touch on the other point and you need someone like christine Keeble to give the details i think Ceroc did a demo were the first move in the show was called the first move which is now taught every where around the country as the first move.

    Thwn there was funky lush who changed the type of music Modern jive was being danced to which has spread all over the uk.

    The list goes on.

    Just because you don't know , doesn't mean it Doesn't happen
    Last edited by Lory; 29th-December-2010 at 01:36 AM. Reason: fixed quotes

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    the bachata classes took off around 2005 (ish), equally quickly. I can't think of a single MJ-wide change which is as significant to the teaching and the dancing as either of those two were to salsa.

    But both of those changes happened from the bottom up; they weren't imposed, they just happened because the scene had the freedom to innovate quickly. There was no "book of moves" to adhere to. Teachers individually just reacted to what local dancers wanted.


    .
    Bachata is a diffrent dance so do not see how this fits,it's like saying WCS took off in 2003

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Well i was teaching salsa at that time for Romario who ran all of the London clubs.
    I'm fairly sure no one person has ever "run all the London clubs" - there's dozens of them, I'm not aware of anyone having achieved any type of dominance over the salsa market, even in London. MJ is in a unique position that way, being effectively led by a single large organisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    there were set moves he wanted taught at the begginers classes and intermediates so again you are wrong, or just miss informed.
    Of course each individual teacher and orgnisation will define a style and moves, but unless Romario was running hundreds of clubs across the UK, and unless most other salsa clubs took their lead from his terminlogy and methodology, it's not a valid comparison.


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    I also did some teaching for jules who ran the clubs in the berkshire area he was very influenced by what Romario was doing and hence ran his clubs the same.

    Also at the Salsa congress the champs of that year would sowcase the demos that they had won with and low and behold everyone was teaching the same thing for the next 6 months.
    Well, yes. That's pretty much my argument. Innovation spread sideways... I think we're saying the same thing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Just because you don't know , doesn't mean it Doesn't happen
    I still don't believe the level of innovation and rate of change in MJ matches that of other dance forms. It can't - the disadvantage of standardisation is that you can't change rapidly, the model doesn't allow it.

    But this is getting fairly off-topic and theoretical.

    So getting back to the topic, does anyone know what these changes actually are?

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Bachata is a diffrent dance so do not see how this fits,it's like saying WCS took off in 2003
    But bachata classes and music are now incorporated in lots of salsa classes. I don't see WCS classes being taught in Ceroc, nor are there (explicit) WCS sections in Ceroc freestyles.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    I don't see WCS classes being taught in Ceroc, nor are there (explicit) WCS sections in Ceroc freestyles.
    There are regularly WCS classes and WCS style classes (e.g. slotted dancing, whips etc..) at Ceroc weekenders, and hence it's not too far a leap to have similar in regular classes.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    There are regularly WCS classes and WCS style classes (e.g. slotted dancing, whips etc..) at Ceroc weekenders, and hence it's not too far a leap to have similar in regular classes.
    No, that's not a good comparison.

    Modern Jive weekenders have always had non-Ceroc dance classes - salsa, ballroom, tango, WCS, you name it. That doesn't mean these styles will be taught in weekly Ceroc classes.

  13. #113
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Just because you don't know , doesn't mean it Doesn't happen
    Personally, I'd suggest that if people don't notice, that suggests it really doesn't happen. Or if it does happen, it doesn't have any widespread effect. Personally, since I started dancing, I've not seen a great deal of change in MJ lessons. Plus - that All Change article suggests that nothing much has changed in a while in terms of core beginners' moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aforementioned Article
    Our Beginner’s moves and routines have served us well for over a quarter of a century,
    As for other dances changing - David Bailey's talked about Salsa, so I might as well bring the swing dances into it - and as I'm at a pretty major Lindy / Balboa camp at this moment it's easy to draw comparisons. I'd say that in the time since my first Balboa lesson, and the time since my first Lindy lesson, the teaching of each has changed hugely.

    Balboa is a great example - the modern resurgence happened when dancers sought out some of the old-timers who used to dance it, learned from them, and started teaching it to others. From there, we've seen changes from a number of sources, including:
    • New insights, moves and technique from said old-timers.
    • People studying the old videos of the dance, and figuring out what the dancers are doing, and taking moves and ideas from them (much harder than it sounds, given the low quality of some of said videos, and the high speed of the dancing)
    • Ideas coming in from other dances
    • Teachers meeting, inventing new moves, working out new teaching techniques, sharing ideas etc


    This process is continually ongoing, which is why, even in the short time that I've been learning it properly, I've seen some pretty significant changes and enhancements to the way elements of the dance - even down to the core footwork - are taught, plus interesting trends in new moves and variations that have been appearing each year.

    Lindy goes through similar processes - although given its more widespread nature, how much you'll see of it depends on where you go. Attend some of the major international camps, and it becomes very obvious.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I am not as such on Andy's side but I have never in my 17 years (including 3 years as a Taxi), come across the lead being specifically instructed to move out of the ladies line.
    Well it does intrigued me what has been said or taught over those 17 years, Directions should be crystal clear and easy to understand, some learn from listening others from watching. Saying both step straight forward so that you both end up hip to hip is a physical impossibility!

    I used to simply teach it saying, Ladies step straight forward, Men as you step forward you have to step to the left and out of the ladies way so that you both end up right hip to hip!

    I do think taking it a step further that the current way the 1st move is taught needs to be changed as it asks the lady to break her frame to often which goes against one of the sound principals of partner dancing

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I used to simply teach it saying, Ladies step straight forward, Men as you step forward you have to step to the left and out of the ladies way so that you both end up right hip to hip!
    I do this completely differently. I get the guy to step slightly (and inch or two) forward* and to the left to clear the lady's line of dance on the compression phase in beats 1&2. This means the guy leads the lady into to his right hand side on 3&4 and turns her out on beat 5.

    In this way the guy is completely off the lady's line when he leads her into his right hand side.

    * The reason I get the guy to step slightly forward is because it is not backwards.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I do this completely differently. I get the guy to step slightly (and inch or two) forward* and to the left to clear the lady's line of dance on the compression phase in beats 1&2. This means the guy leads the lady into to his right hand side on 3&4 and turns her out on beat 5.

    In this way the guy is completely off the lady's line when he leads her into his right hand side.

    * The reason I get the guy to step slightly forward is because it is not backwards.

    Of late i just teach it as i would teach a WCS whip but with Jive timing, both back on 1, both into face parallel to the slot on 2, back for the ladies on 3, walk the lady forward on 4, raise the hand let the lady walk under on 5, square up and face on 6, travelling return to finish by 7 and 8, This way the lady can maintain her frame throughout....

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Good grief... isn't everyone bored sh1tless of this now?? The change is based on feedback from the teachers who are best placed to judge what the people in their classes have fed back to them over the years and what they have personally observed. The change is all to do with how NEW dancers experience learning to dance and about improving retention.

    It's not about technicalities, it's not about the subtleties of lead and follow, it's all about improving the customer experience and about helping people to connect with dancing more quickly in that short window of opportunity we have with them at the start.

    It's been trialled in numerous venues before Xmas and the feedback so far has been overwhelmingly positive.. Ceroc will be reviewing the feedback over the coming months and all they are concerned about is being pro-active about improving the customer experience.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Good grief... isn't everyone bored sh1tless of this now??
    Not yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The change is based on feedback from the teachers who are best placed to judge what the people in their classes have fed back to them over the years and what they have personally observed. The change is all to do with how NEW dancers experience learning to dance and about improving retention.
    Yes, that sounds about right. I can definitely believe that it's mainly about retention. Nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It's not about technicalities, it's not about the subtleties of lead and follow, it's all about improving the customer experience and about helping people to connect with dancing more quickly in that short window of opportunity we have with them at the start.
    Sounds good. Although there are no details of what the changes are, which is unfortunate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Ceroc will be reviewing the feedback over the coming months and all they are concerned about is being pro-active about improving the customer experience.
    Blimey, this has been an advert on behalf of the Ceroc party.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Ceroc will be reviewing the feedback over the coming months and all they are concerned about is being pro-active about improving the customer experience.
    Not true. They are also leveraging their synergies to maximize the Zeitgeist of opportunities offered by the serendipitous juxtaposition of the most successful Strictly Come Dancing ever and the forthcoming Royal Wedding.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Blimey, this has been an advert on behalf of the Ceroc party.
    Bingo.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    * The reason I get the guy to step slightly forward is because it is not backwards.
    what's wrong with backwards????

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