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Thread: New year, new dance...(apparently)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think the old way of teaching was rather like passing on a narrow path. You both give way a bit. It's like you're dancing a figure of eight around each other rather than getting out of the way
    And that is, I think, part of what creates the circular motion. If the lead stays on the slot, the follow has to make some sort of lateral motion to get around the lead. With the rigid structure of the class to keep everyone in line, the lateral motion produces rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    In 10 years of dancing and taking lessons within ceroc I have always been taught lessons within a slot BUT I have never been taught to get out of a ladies slot / line of dance...

    If you want to make the dance more slotted you have to mention a slot and what the expectations are of the leaderand follower in the dance. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT YOU WILL NEVER MOVE A WAY FROM THE CIRCULAR MOTION.
    That's the point I was getting at - while moves are taught in a straight line, the technique of dancing in the slot, including the expectations of lead and follow are not properly taught (or even mentioned). I've never attended any of Rocky's classes, but I've probably been taught by over 50 different ceroc teachers in the UK and I can't recall any of them ever mentioning how to dance in the slot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Infact when I have tried to dance MJ in a slot it is always with ladies that want to move around me without ever being lead. This dance usually ends up in a stop start type of dance
    I've found a strong lead can keep most moderately capable follows in a slot. There are exceptions, of course. But if the follow isn't willing to be led, I'm usually not that interested in dancing with them...
    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    As progressive as this is - the freestyle floor tends to be dominated by circular dancers who are unlikely to re-attend beginners lessons to learn the new methodology. I fear this is likely (however well intentioned Ceroc's changes are) to lead to those new trying to dance differently to the more "experienced" dancers to bow to said experience and mimic accordingly, thus developing the bad habits that (as far as I know) are NOT taught by Ceroc (or anyone else) but picked up on the freestyle floor!!
    It will take time, but change can happen. Quite a few years ago, Ceroc was an incredibly bouncy dance. Today, that's far less common.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, you need those for any dancing style. But no, I'd suspect you won't find those being taught in a normal Ceroc class.
    I live in hope, but I suspect your suspicion is valid. A few will, but the mass culture of ceroc probably won't allow it to become widespread.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    I find this whole thread amazing,,
    Why?


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Modern jive is a proggresive dance still young and still young and developing, of course the teaching will change with time, the same as any other partner dance.
    MJ is not quite like other dances though, in that it's a top-down dance; almost designed. Largely, it's driven by one company. It's not like new fads come up from the streets and influence the style organically; or at least, not as easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    these changes come from image, fashion and experience. These elements will always change as those at the top of teaching and demonstrations set the look.
    I'm not sure this happens in Modern Jive, though; or at least, not as quickly as other forms.

    Salsa is a good comparison - it's also still young, but salsa dancing is very much bottom-up in terms of stylistic changes. Influences come from what social dancers discover can be achieved, and if they're successful, these influences get spread around quickly from venue to venue. They don't get decreed or imposed on people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Well done to Ceroc for changing the basic moves and good luck in setting a new standard for your dancers.
    I think it's premature to say "well done to change things" until we knew what the changes are.

    At the moment, it looks to me mainly like a marketing spin.

    If the new teaching incorporated Geoff332's 3 items, or similar, as basic principles, then I agree that'd be a significant change. But just changing a few moves? That's not necessarily anything to shout about.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    As progressive as this is - the freestyle floor tends to be dominated by circular dancers who are unlikely to re-attend beginners lessons to learn the new methodology.
    Yes, there'll definitely be a floorcraft issue between circular-style dancing and slotted-style; we know that because we see that now when MJ-ers and WCS-ers mix. So emphasising more of a slotted style will probably increase this - unless you're in a venue which already has the majority of dancers doing that style.

    But then, any new style produces clashes; so I don't think that's a compelling reason not to do it.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    P.S. I was wrong to say earlier that the beginner moves are not listed.

    If you look at the beginner DVD descriton, they are:

    1. Armjive
    2. Armjive Pushspin
    3. Armjive Swizzle
    4. Basket
    5. Octopus
    6. First Move
    7. First Move Pushspin
    8. Manspin
    9. Side to Side
    10. Step Across
    11. Shoulder Slide
    12. Yoyo
    13. Catapult
    14. Cerocspin
    15. Comb
    16. Slo Comb
    17. Shoulder Drop
    18. Backpass


    It'd be interesting to see which of these would be changed. To be honest, most of the moves seem reasonable beginner moves to me already. Heh, and I see the First Move is not there...

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    • First Move
    • First Move Pushspin

    Heh, and I see the First Move is not there...
    ???

    That list has already changed. The catapult hasn't been taught as a begiiner move for quite a while.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ???

    That list has already changed. The catapult hasn't been taught as a begiiner move for quite a while.
    Interesting, I remember the pretzel, the accordion and the half nelson being taught as beginner moves.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ???

    That list has already changed. The catapult hasn't been taught as a begiiner move for quite a while.
    It was still on the list in August...

    http://www.cerockent.com/?page=3859

    FM.
    Last edited by FirstMove; 26th-December-2010 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Time travel

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, there'll definitely be a floorcraft issue between circular-style dancing and slotted-style; we know that because we see that now when MJ-ers and WCS-ers mix.
    In fairness though, in WCS the slot is a lot longer than the MJ version. I think those floorcraft issue that arise when the two dances are mixed on one floor are mostly due to this difference in expectations.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In fairness though, in WCS the slot is a lot longer than the MJ version.
    What, WCS-ers have longer arms?

    Hmmm, I always suspected there were aliens amongst us.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I guess I missed it. Probably because they've never mentioned in all the classes, workshops, weekenders and so forth that I've been to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    If you want to make the dance more slotted you have to mention a slot and what the expectations are of the leaderand follower in the dance.
    To be clear, when using the term Ceroc slotted dancing / slotted jive I'm only referring to when the teacher has mentioned the slot.

    (or for weekend events it is in the title of the class).

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Semicircle to the left and both step back leaves the guy on the lady's line of dance. When does he step off the lady's line?
    WCS starter step. When does he step off the lady's line ?

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    WCS starter step. When does he step off the lady's line ?
    Are you asking me? I don't teach WCS.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Semicircle to the left and both step back leaves the guy on the lady's line of dance. When does he step off the lady's line?

    p.s. A merry Christmas to one and all!
    When he leads the lady forward and steps in himself he steps to the side - so the lady just steps forward in a straight line. I don't think Ceroc have ever been hard and fast about whether the lady steps to the side, the guy steps to the side or they share it equally - so teachers adapt the format based on their style.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    What, WCS-ers have longer arms?

    Hmmm, I always suspected there were aliens amongst us.


    It's just the dynamics of the dance. In the default open position the dancers are further apart in WCS compared to MJ. Remember that there's no rock-step apart at the beginning of patterns and the dance is usually done to slightly slower music than MJ was really designed for, which gives you more time to take up that space and develop the classic WCS stretch.

    WCS starter step. When does he step off the lady's line ?
    He doesn't of course, and doesn't in the sugar push either. This is because there is no need to do so in those patterns.

    I'm not sure why you think that's relevent to any of the discussion in this thread.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I don't think the fact that WCS is slotted has much to do with floorcraft problems at mixed freestyles. Theres enough slotted jivers around where I dance that do not create similar problems. It's the WCS elongation of the slot that's the difference, jivers (rightly) don't expect it, and a lot of WCS'ers struggling with the intricacies of the dance aren't quite experienced enough to take into account the different floorcraft dynamic.


    I remember being told to 'step off' the line (never called a slot) by various Ceroc teachers many times when I was learning. The octopus sticks in my mind for that. I can't honestly remember a Ceroc (or Mojive) teacher who didn't say something very similar about getting out of the way. But then I've always known the South Coast rules the MJ world .


    Back on topic, so far personally I have only heard definitively that the beginner moves have been freshened up, and that the last move in the intermediates class may be an advanced move. Nowhere have I heard anything about a smoother dance or a more slotted dance except on this forum. Can't see any commercial advantage in either of those. Laudable, but wishful thinking methinks.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Why?



    MJ is not quite like other dances though, in that it's a top-down dance; almost designed. Largely, it's driven by one company. It's not like new fads come up from the streets and influence the style organically; or at least, not as easily.


    I'm not sure this happens in Modern Jive, though; or at least, not as quickly as other forms.

    .
    Ermm ok lets think back,

    Dan baines hip hop styling comp at ceroc champs then lots of workshops and new moves after.

    Further back simon selmon blues ,

    further forward nigel and Nina Lindy influence

    Victor and Lydia salsa influence

    bit further Clayton and janine showdances

    Phil and Yuko latin

    Amir Tango / Jango

    each has then moved down into every day teachers either straight copy of styles and moves or variations of.
    thats why i think this has been the norm for years.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    When he leads the lady forward and steps in himself he steps to the side - so the lady just steps forward in a straight line.
    I think you'd have to be very quick on your feet to completely clear the lady's line of dance in a way that allowed her to step straight forward. It would be more like a game of chicken with constant collisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I don't think Ceroc have ever been hard and fast about whether the lady steps to the side, the guy steps to the side or they share it equally
    I think this is what really happens at all the Ceroc lessons I've seen. The man and woman share the line of dance. The man steps forward and to the left and so does the woman. But it's not a step to the left, it's a slight angulation to the left and a step straight forward. Looking at the clock face, the couple start facing the 12 and the 6, but they change to face the 11 and 5 and travel straight towards those numbers. In the lesson they adjust their position so they are again facing the 12 & 6 after they've changed places. In the freestyle most dancers repeat this adjustment over and over and move right around the clock face.

    The angle may not be exactly 5 minutes of the clock face and it might take more or less than 12 changes of place for a couple to complete a circle, but that's what I see happening on the dance floor with the majority of people who attend Ceroc classes.

    I believe it's this teaching of the step back that's at the bottom of Modern Jive that works it's way around the clock. Do I think there's anything wrong with this teaching or dancing? No I don't. It's not the way I teach or the way I dance, but it really doesn't matter so long as you're dancing and having fun.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    Ermm ok lets think back,

    Dan baines hip hop styling comp at ceroc champs then lots of workshops and new moves after.

    Further back simon selmon blues ,

    further forward nigel and Nina Lindy influence

    Victor and Lydia salsa influence

    bit further Clayton and janine showdances

    Phil and Yuko latin

    Amir Tango / Jango

    each has then moved down into every day teachers either straight copy of styles and moves or variations of.
    thats why i think this has been the norm for years.
    I was there for most of these, dammit, I'm so old I was there for all of them and a few others too - one of my early influences was seeing how much fun Rob Coward was having in DWAS in 1997 at the Hammersmith Palais

    I think the influence of competition winners on modern jive is exaggerated. It's a bit like high fashion effecting the high street. The dancer in the street isn't even aware of what's going on at competitions. Watching a weekender dance floor I rarely see Lindy moves, hip-hop styling, tango styling, etc - I do see a lot of Latin styling, but that's because jive is a Latin American dance.

    And nowadays competitions seem to won and lost on big and spectacular lifts and tricks rather than stylish, innovative and musical dancing - and having fun at competitions seems to have been lost altogether for some competitors. Lifts are not going to be influencing social dancing, no matter how stylish.

    IMHO most dancers are effected by what the are taught week after week by that teacher who stands on that stage each week. For most of us that isn't Viktor or Nigel or Dan. I think that a change in teaching by 200 Ceroc teachers (made up number alert) each week is going to have much more influence over the shape of the dance than all of those competition stars put together.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Nowhere have I heard anything about a smoother dance or a more slotted dance except on this forum. Can't see any commercial advantage in either of those. Laudable, but wishful thinking methinks.


    As someone who teaches smooth and slotted I have to agree. There is no commercial advantage. I would say it's a slight disadvantage as staying smooth and getting off the lady's line makes the dance, initially, a bit harder to pick up.

    It also makes it harder to be a guest teacher at venues where they aren't SnS. And it's really hard to find guest teachers

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    But then I've always known the South Coast rules the MJ world .
    We've always know this - Scotland's good too. Not sure about the bit in the middle

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think the influence of competition winners on modern jive is exaggerated. It's a bit like high fashion effecting the high street. The dancer in the street isn't even aware of what's going on at competitions. Watching a weekender dance floor I rarely see Lindy moves, hip-hop styling, tango styling, etc.
    because that was then and this is now , just after each of the above events there was a massive influx of moves taught at classes either complete mimicks of that style or variations of.
    The point is these groups of dancers normally have such an in depth knowledge of the subject they are the ones capable of filtering it into jive to give that flavour

    what i tend to see a lot of is mimicks. It's fine to say i can teach such and such but always ask questions of your teacher to see if they really know understand the movement and how to lead and follow the move. My respect always goes to those that can.

    I think the comp market is just as friendly as it was before take the welsh champs and Blackpool each have been applauded for how friendly they were. Quote

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post


    As someone who teaches smooth and slotted I have to agree.
    It also makes it harder to be a guest teacher at venues where they aren't SnS. And it's really hard to find guest teachers

    :
    REALLY!!!!! since when, last time we had a conversation you thought the idea of smooth jive or anything not circular was a waste of time. i think that was the start of this year.

    What was the sudden change in heart.

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