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Thread: New year, new dance...(apparently)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I

    And this "slot-based dancing" stuff from Ceroc seems to me to be a simple marketing ploy - they want to make it look a bit like "Easy WCS".
    Oooh... yes please!

    (Then I won't have to trek down Norf Lundin on Tuesday evenings next year).

    Hopefully, all this will be a culmination of what I said before.....going for smooth and slotted as part of the evolution of Ceroc. Dave Plummer style I guess......

    And of course, keeping it as the Über Dance...........
    Last edited by JiveLad; 23rd-December-2010 at 06:08 PM.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Originally Posted by Gerry
    Sorry Ant I disagree
    I don't think we do disagree.

    If I didn't ask a question within the advanced lesson we would never have been given the small pointer to help make the lead of the move work
    Why you had to seek this clarification is open to debate and my point 3 above refers. However by going to a lesson finding out what further information you required was my point 4 above.
    If you are going to teach advance moves, you need to be able to break it down and highlight the significant parts of the lead that make it work.
    Agreed as per my point 2 above.

    I have been in a number of lessons and spoken to the teacher afterwards concerning parts of the lesson and the had no inclination in putting over the information needed in fact they thought we should already know it.
    I think you are now alluding to the qualtiy of the teachers concerned. This is a point FF has subsequently been making. It was not a point that I commented on in my post but for what it is worth I agree with you both that the quality of the teaching is key.

    As far as I am concerned this is still a lead and follow dance and if the men are not taught how to lead properly you can never progress that far
    This is an interesting area, again which I had not commented on in my post above.

    This is my take on it.

    I have oscillated over MJ teaching, its pitfalls and its advantages and I feel the following points are relevant.

    1 MJ teaching per se does not concentrate on technique both from the individual and the dance partner perspective. However it does try to incorporate some of these areas in context in its lessons.

    2 I feel the result of this way of teaching produces two things. Generally speaking bold and daring leaders and followers that may not be as technically as proficient as people taught in other partner dances.

    3 However, much of the technique learned in the other partner dances that I am aware of comes more from its culture of private lessons that is far less common in MJ. Rather than from its group classes.

    4 Whether this is because the teachers in these other disciplines are better qualified to give these technique based privates compared to MJ teachers, who knows. However to train a Ballroom teacher is counted in years rather than in months so I suspect that they are better trained in this regard and so better placed.

    5 I wonder how much of the MJ training we have been given that we do not realise we have taken in then benefits us if we cross over into other dances. We are then critising MJ teaching once we see some benefits of the training in these other dances without giving the credit to our MJ training.

    At the end of the day if each dance is taken in isolation, in other words training for one dance only, and each student has the same level of ability, is given the same level of resourses in terms of time and money, what training will produce the better leaders and followers?

    I have a feeling that compared to the other forms of dancing I have come across the MJ model will. Because I think at the end of the day the dancers coming this way have far less restrictions in regard to the way they dance planted in their minds.

    Where I think MJ lets itself down is the strand of technique that needs to follow through its training. It seems to me that the new approach is an attempt to remedy this.

    Whether it is produces the desired results will depend on the teachers and only time will tell.

  3. #43
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    That is not to say that there isnt a place for teaching all the techniques required to make those moves look better and feel better but I am not sure of the answer and I am equally not so sure it works in the mass class situation.
    From reading this thread I see evidence of a school of thought that you can teach moves without teaching any technique. If we think of technique as the "how" and the moves as the "what", it's obvious that you need to tell people "how" to do the moves, even beginners.

    But we do need to simplify the "how" and keep it to the minimum to make the moves work. Even if we've just saying "with the hand at waist height draw the lady forward pulling gently from the elbow" we're talking about the technique of tension. However, the guys who are defiantly holding on with the wrong hand will still get the move wrong - but you can only say "guy's right lady's right" so many times before you carry on teaching

    I think the technique in the lesson needs to be like the writing in the rock. It's not the rock, but it runs all the way through it.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    From reading this thread I see evidence of a school of thought that you can teach moves without teaching any technique. If we think of technique as the "how" and the moves as the "what", it's obvious that you need to tell people "how" to do the moves, even beginners.

    But we do need to simplify the "how" and keep it to the minimum to make the moves work. Even if we've just saying "with the hand at waist height draw the lady forward pulling gently from the elbow" we're talking about the technique of tension. However, the guys who are defiantly holding on with the wrong hand will still get the move wrong - but you can only say "guy's right lady's right" so many times before you carry on teaching

    I think the technique in the lesson needs to be like the writing in the rock. It's not the rock, but it runs all the way through it.

    Please no teaching of the hand at waist level or ever mentioning the term 'pulling of the elbow' pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Please no teaching of the hand at waist level or ever mentioning the term 'pulling of the elbow' pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!
    Of course, what was I thinking? The hand should be at shoulder height and the lady should be shoved backwards while looking like a surprised meerkat

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Indeed. But presumably there's a difference between teaching which just happens to be slotted, and teaching to dance in a slot.


    I'm not sure how that works - can you elaborate?

    Whether i'm teaching WCS or MJ i ask the girls to simply dance from A to B in straight line and face your partner whenever possible To the men, Guys take small steps and get out of the way(get off the slot) and then get back on.

    From a connection point of view in simple terms and i'll use the Ceroc step to the left then step to the right starter step thing that everyone does as an example. We are also assuming that the dreaded semi circle has been consigned to the history books too!

    As a leader in MJ i want to communicate to my follow when i want her to step back by offering and increasing the amount of compression (A linear technique) if i am bouncing from left to right then my chances of indicating this effectively using a physical lead rather than a Visual lead have gone from being very good to having almost no chance. So i simply believe that i stand a better chance of being followed better when trying to lead a linear technique like Compression or extension whilst dancing slotted. Trying to lead compression with someone who wants to bounce and run around in circles is not easy! Hence my calling it a purer form. I also believe dancing slotted offers far more in terms of allowing more freedom within the partnership to play because you have shape and structure to the dance. I consider this to be a purer form of partner dancing as it allows a clearer conversation aspect to take place during the dance. The lady knows where she needs to be ultimately but how long it takes to get there or how she gets there is largely up for creating and changing my both partners.
    Last edited by DavidY; 23rd-December-2010 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Fixing quote

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Of course, what was I thinking? The hand should be at shoulder height and the lady should be shoved backwards while looking like a surprised meerkat
    Simplezzzz

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Unless I have got it all wrong ...
    From my observation,the average class attendee, doesnt go to Ceroc to learn technique.Their priority is to learn how to execute a move whether it's beginner.intermediate or advanced..
    Sorry to dissolution you, but I do not think the average class attendee goes to , or wants, to, learn anything. We go for a fun, value for money, night out and I am please to say, Ceroc delivers the goods

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    From my observation,the average class attendee doesnt go to Ceroc to learn technique.Their priority is to learn how to execute a move whether it's beginner.intermediate or advanced.They interpret each one as having a greater degree of difficulty than the other.Heavens above the majority of dancers have enough trouble learning the moves never mind trying to teach technique.
    They would accept technique if it was introduced at beginner level and there was a culture of respecting the importance of good technique. Technique classes should make the moves easier to learn and execute and certainly make them look and feel better as well.


    You only have to stand on the side of the dancefloor and observe the number of dancers going thro the motions of moves,sometimes very poorly and realise that teaching anything other than the basic fundamentals of a move would be completely wasted. That is not to say that there isnt a place for teaching all the techniques required to make those moves look better and feel better but I am not sure of the answer and I am equally not so sure it works in the mass class situation.
    Doesn't everyone want to dance with people that look and feel good? So what possible reason can there be for witholding the necessary teaching? Ideally with a follow-up of some sort of personalised small group coaching so direct feedback can be given, because I think that would be helpful.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Please no teaching of the hand at waist level
    Why not?

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Why not?
    It's not comfortable or right! The height of the hands cannot be defined by for example the mans waist because every follower is a different height! The perfect height of the hands is a compromise between what is comfortable between the partnership! it's also around the height of where you dance from which is your centre! Easiest way to get there is to have the ladies arms at her side then get them to lift the hands so that the forearms are parallel to the floor then get her to set her hands forward so there is a slight bend in the arm, thats closer to where you want to be! Men offering the hand at waist level can only to right to a lady of a certain height!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Why not?
    Take a look at this social dance!





    Hands almost always at the comfortable height for both partners as both Jordan & Jessica are similar heights, hands at about where i would describe their centres are.....

    Then Take at this at this one



    Sarah is much smaller and therefore it's more of a compromise, Jordan`s hands on wraps and almost everything in closed position are higher on Sarah`s back relative to the position on Jessica`s back. If he moved his hands any lower then dancing with Sarah and would not be as comfortable. Sarah's connection is also higher than most girls, it's almost from the height of her shoulders if you watch, she had to develop this because of her lack of height, so it's about finding that comfortable spot! as i said as followers are different heights this means it can't solely be for the man to determine the height of the hands....

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Men offering the hand at waist level can only to right to a lady of a certain height!
    We always stress the follower's waist, not the leader's, as do most teachers that I've observed. I agree that the ideal hand position can vary depending on the partners, but your center is around waist level, and the term serves well as a quick, non-verbose reference point - often needed in a beginners' class where hands often tend to rise throughout a set of moves.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    My mistake and my apologies,I am confusing technique with style and performance.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    We always stress the follower's waist, not the leader's, as do most teachers that I've observed. I agree that the ideal hand position can vary depending on the partners, but your center is around waist level, and the term serves well as a quick, non-verbose reference point - often needed in a beginners' class where hands often tend to rise throughout a set of moves.
    At Ceroc we were taught to say Man`s waist level as the height! The reason i saw hands raising was because they were too low initially! hence the connection will naturally find the height of the centre which is where the comfortable spot is! I agree that beginners need some reference usually, the right reference would help!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    We always stress the follower's waist, not the leader's, as do most teachers that I've observed. I agree that the ideal hand position can vary depending on the partners, but your center is around waist level, and the term serves well as a quick, non-verbose reference point - often needed in a beginners' class where hands often tend to rise throughout a set of moves.

    Also though saying the followers height would not always be right as someone of Sarah Vann Drake`s height would testify to.....

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Take a look at this social dance!
    Well - as a simplification - in both dances, they maintain a hand-hold that centres around waist-level. Sometimes it goes above (especially when they have a greater distance between them), and sometimes it's closer to the hips, but I'd say waist-level is the rough average there.

    The way I see it - of course it's going to vary - but when teaching beginners you want to simplify, and saying 'waist level' is a good simplification.


    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    At Ceroc we were taught to say Man`s waist level as the height!
    Ah... OK - I was not, and I too would take issue with that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    The reason i saw hands raising was because they were too low initially! hence the connection will naturally find the height of the centre which is where the comfortable spot is! I agree that beginners need some reference usually, the right reference would help!
    I usually see hands rising out of tension - sometimes up to shoulder height - hence the need for a quick reference as a reminder. As a side-note - the waist is defined as being the area between the bottom of your ribs and your pelvis - so there's some good margin for error in that.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    We always stress the follower's waist, not the leader's, as do most teachers that I've observed. I agree that the ideal hand position can vary depending on the partners, but your center is around waist level, and the term serves well as a quick, non-verbose reference point - often needed in a beginners' class where hands often tend to rise throughout a set of moves.
    When I'm teaching I talk about the lady's elbow height rather than her waist.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    This whole lets teach Ceroc slotted as a new thing staggers me! People seem to have forgotten that Ceroc is taught from the stage with the teacher and Demo parallel to the class all of whom are slotted! I used to disguise trying to teach people to dance slotted all the time as saying it was for floor craft purposes and it reduces your chances of being kicked and elbowed by Mr 'i have no sense of location' dancer which of course it does do but i also think dancing slotted is a purer and easier form of lead and follow....All that needs to happen is that the teachers need to encourage the class to dance as they have learnt during the lesson!
    Totally agree. In beginners taxi sessions I would always remind them (especially followers) about the direction they were dancing in (ie they'd still be going forward and back in a 'kind of' slot) to make life easier for spinning/turning/staying balanced etc. But as soon as they got in freestyle, it seemed to go totally out the window. Can't understand it myself, as being on a slot is much easier on the balance if that's the way you're being led, especially if you're a beginner with no balance or dance technique training.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Whether i'm teaching WCS or MJ i ask the girls to simply dance from A to B in straight line and face your partner whenever possible To the men, Guys take small steps and get out of the way(get off the slot) and then get back on.
    Yes - but that concept of a slot (and the "get out of the way" bit) is not taught as standard in Ceroc. If that changes, great.

    But I'm still not convinced that slotted dancing is inherently "purer" or will teach better technique, compared to other styles.

    I dance slotted if the music fits (Latin, typically for me) - but loads of dance styles are not slotted, that doesn't make them either easier or less lead-and-follow based.

    Teaching good slotted dancing, however, would be a welcome step - as we've said, that's how it's taught anyway so it makes sense to teach it properly.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 24th-December-2010 at 12:43 PM.

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