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Thread: New year, new dance...(apparently)

  1. #21
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    seems very similar to what is being taught already in my local class, smooth and slotted, with the third move of the second session being advanced. May be we have been the guinea pigs

    Its certainly very popular, the class is about twice the size of any other in my aerial

    it wont stop the bouncers, they know it all, learnt it 20 years ago and dont need to go to lessons
    Excluding the die hard bouncers - has it improved the general standard? Is it more stimulating from an attendees point of view?

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Every business benefits from a freshening up and i don't think this is any different, also any business that is constantly reviewing,updating and improving their product is going in the right direction methinks. I only hope they looked outside of the Ceroc empire for advice and feedback as people within an organisation will always struggle to be truly objective. At my Company it is our policy to use truly independent Industry Professionals to review our performance. We then get a more balanced and objective review of what we are doing.

    On the point of adding an advanced move i do wonder how is something deemed to be an Advance move? I usually see the scenario where as Gerry said you would see a move taught with 4 multiple turns but it isn't taught so the man knows how to lead it properly nor is the girl taught how to spot properly or Frame isn't mentioned, Then what happens is most people find it difficult to do and assume because it is difficult or not working great then it must be an 'Advanced' move. The very best teachers that i've seen have the ability to teach a concept or a pattern but teach it in a multi layered way that people of varying abilities within the class all get something from it.

    One last point, it is generally accepted that Ceroc`s success is down to the simple fact that it is an easy thing to learn rather than the amount of technique taught, So it certainly makes sense to to avoid teaching things like connection, frame, Posture etc in any great depth within the beginners class as it would scare most beginners off, there certainly isn't enough time with the Intermediate class to teach technique in great depth, So teaching an Advanced move sounds like offering something that a small few want but i don't think it is maybe what they need.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Excluding the die hard bouncers - has it improved the general standard? Is it more stimulating from an attendees point of view?
    Yes I think it has /does
    I have taken a number friends new to MJ, to this class , they have then tried other class in my area, with out exception they all tell me this is the best class

    The class also attracts quite a few "advanced" dancers

    The teacher often points out, any one who has just moved up, should not worry if they cannot get the last move

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    One last point, it is generally accepted that Ceroc`s success is down to the simple fact that it is an easy thing to learn rather than the amount of technique taught, So it certainly makes sense to to avoid teaching things like connection, frame, Posture etc in any great depth within the beginners class as it would scare most beginners off, there certainly isn't enough time with the Intermediate class to teach technique in great depth, .
    Up to this point I agree.

    So teaching an Advanced move sounds like offering something that a small few want but i don't think it is maybe what they need
    You have not made it clear why you don't think an advanced is not what people need. If you feel that they should not be taught advanced moves at all as this is not part of the Ceroc model could you expand on that.

    If it is because the ability level of the attendees is not high enough for them to benefit from being taught moves that incorporate the technique of the advanced moves because there current level of ability is not high enough, then I disagree. Because:

    1 Ceroc have been critisised for their lack of teaching "technique". Within their teaching model the way they are now trying to remedy this is by introducing an advanced move. How else would you suggest they remedy it?
    2 I supsect the success or failure of this will depend alot on the quality of teachers giving the lesson. As you have stated if a teacher can design the teaching of these moves in a constructive manner everybody can get a benefit.
    3 Presumably the training to be given to the teachers giving advanced move lessons will be increased therefore increasing their overall level of teaching competance.
    4 Even if the techique required is above the ability level of most, if not all of the attendees then by learning from this negetive they will know what additional technique they need to get tuition on and if they use that knowledge, in the long term it will help them improve.

    What I think may be found in the short term is that not venues will do an advanced move every week. Some may find two weekly or monthly advanced move days will be useful.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Every business benefits from a freshening up and i don't think this is any different, also any business that is constantly reviewing,updating and improving their product is going in the right direction methinks.
    Sure, absolutely. A refresh is a good idea, business-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    On the point of adding an advanced move i do wonder how is something deemed to be an Advance move?
    It's one with a lot of spins and complex arm movements.



    On a slightly more serious move, I'd say an advanced move is one that requires good technique to lead and follow (yes, sure, that's all of them, but some more than others). So, I guess something like a Columbian (grapevine / linear giro) is sometimes seen as an advanced move, because it requires good body leading to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    One last point, it is generally accepted that Ceroc`s success is down to the simple fact that it is an easy thing to learn rather than the amount of technique taught, So it certainly makes sense to to avoid teaching things like connection, frame, Posture etc in any great depth within the beginners class as it would scare most beginners off, there certainly isn't enough time with the Intermediate class to teach technique in great depth, So teaching an Advanced move sounds like offering something that a small few want but i don't think it is maybe what they need.
    Pretty much this.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    1 Ceroc have been critisised for their lack of teaching "technique". Within their teaching model the way they are now trying to remedy this is by introducing an advanced move. How else would you suggest they remedy it?
    Personally, I'd suggest introducing a "technique" section as an integral part of each intermediate class, with the idea being that the moves taught in that class require technique to lead them.

    Moves should follow technique, not the other way around.

    P.S. Boo!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Up to this point I agree.


    You have not made it clear why you don't think an advanced is not what people need. If you feel that they should not be taught advanced moves at all as this is not part of the Ceroc model could you expand on that.

    If it is because the ability level of the attendees is not high enough for them to benefit from being taught moves that incorporate the technique of the advanced moves because there current level of ability is not high enough, then I disagree. Because:

    1 Ceroc have been critisised for their lack of teaching "technique". Within their teaching model the way they are now trying to remedy this is by introducing an advanced move. How else would you suggest they remedy it?
    Sorry Ant I disagree.

    If I didn't ask a question within the advanced lesson we would never have been given the small pointer to help make the lead of the move work.

    If you are going to teach advance moves, you need to be able to break it down and highlight the significant parts of the lead that make it work. I have been in a number of lessons and spoken to the teacher afterwards concerning parts of the lesson and the had no inclination in putting over the information needed in fact they thought we should already know it.

    As far as I am concerned this is still a lead and follow dance and if the men are not taught how to lead properly you can never progress that far.
    Last edited by DavidY; 23rd-December-2010 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Fixed quote

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    On a slightly more serious move, I'd say an advanced move is one that requires good technique to lead and follow (yes, sure, that's all of them, but some more than others). So, I guess something like a Columbian (grapevine / linear giro) is sometimes seen as an advanced move, because it requires good body leading to work.
    I would say that an advanced move is one that the teacher calls an advanced move. It's a move that people who call themselves advanced dancers will get. It's also a move that people who think of themselves as intermediate dancers will feel no shame in not getting.

    The problem comes when people who call themselves advanced dancers fail to get the advanced move. This means the move was not advanced - my guess is that the advanced dancers will assume it was the teacher who was rubbish.

    After all, the advanced dancers know everything about dance and could probably teach the teacher a thing or two.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    ...has it improved the general standard? Is it more stimulating from an attendees point of view?
    It hasn't happened yet, but I think it can only improve things. Going along and having a good night out is one motivation for going to ceroc - but there are plenty of ways of having a good night out. Going out and achieving something - like getting better at dancing - is much harder to find. Once you get beyond the basic beginner level at ceroc, this sort of progressive achievement isn't something I see ceroc consistently delivering.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    On the point of adding an advanced move i do wonder how is something deemed to be an Advance move?
    I suspect it will be 'moves that not some 'intermediate' dancers people find a little tricky'. Or some other similar (and rather subjective) definition. That's certainly been my experience of most advanced moves I've seen taught by ceroc.



    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    One last point, it is generally accepted that Ceroc`s success is down to the simple fact that it is an easy thing to learn rather than the amount of technique taught, So it certainly makes sense to to avoid teaching things like connection, frame, Posture etc in any great depth within the beginners class as it would scare most beginners off, there certainly isn't enough time with the Intermediate class to teach technique in great depth, So teaching an Advanced move sounds like offering something that a small few want but i don't think it is maybe what they need.
    Just because something is part of the recipe for success doesn't mean it won't also contribute to failure. There was a great book written about 20 years ago about business where the business basis for their success ultimately led to their failure. In most cases, this was because they assumed their success would continue. Ceroc, whether they are right or wrong in this instance, are at least not sitting in their laurels.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    If it is because the ability level of the attendees is not high enough for them to benefit from being taught moves that incorporate the technique of the advanced moves because there current level of ability is not high enough
    This is the most common criticism I hear of 'advanced' ceroc when it's taught regularly. Unfortunately, without some mechanism to control the quality of dancers who do the advanced class (and this can be based in expectations rather than in any formal assessment).
    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    ... if the techique required is above the ability level of most, if not all of the attendees then by learning
    In my experience, you don't learn much by doing something you can already do. You learn by trying doing stuff that's currently beyond you. You get it wrong, you adjust, and, eventually, you can do it. If the move and technique are not above the level of some (if not most) attendees, then some (if not most) won't be learning very much at all. One of the skill of a teacher is to keep people motivated at things they can't do, until the point where they can do them.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    On a slightly more serious move, I'd say an advanced move is one that requires good technique to lead and follow (yes, sure, that's all of them, but some more than others). So, I guess something like a Columbian (grapevine / linear giro) is sometimes seen as an advanced move, because it requires good body leading to work.
    I'd agree with your definition, but it's unlikely this will be the operational definition that's used.

    If you want to use the columbian as an example, I find this a frustrating move. Most people can do it because they've learnt the move; relatively few people seem to actually know the lead and follow properly. If it were taught properly (with the necessary technique), then it's a tricky move to do well. However, if you just learn the move, it's not that hard. Guess which avenue I suspect they will take.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I doubt there will be much real change to be honest though. With an organisation as large and dispersed as Ceroc even small changes will take a long time to implement across the board, and ensuring those changes are followed would be a pretty challenging task I suspect. Especially in places where the teachers aren't directly answerable to HQ.
    Ceroc NZ (or the aussie flavours) is not Ceroc UK. Unless they've completely changed it, the beginners moves they teach in NZ are already quite different from the moves they teach in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Reading the article, I don't see much to indicate there will be a change in the way moves are taught.
    As I understand it, through those reliable sources of gossip, rumour and heresay, they are going to change the way moves are taught as well. For example, it's likely to be explicitly slotted (I hope they open the first move properly to make it flow... but that's probably asking too much). These changes, I hope, will make the dance smoother.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    In reply to Ant

    You have not made it clear why you don't think an advanced is not what people need. If you feel that they should not be taught advanced moves at all as this is not part of the Ceroc model could you expand on that.

    I think Basic Technique would be more beneficial to People instead of an Advanced move! Hence what i think they need is to be able to dance better and not more complex moves which is probably what they want! By all mean teach an Advanced move but please teach it correctly!

    If it is because the ability level of the attendees is not high enough for them to benefit from being taught moves that incorporate the technique of the advanced moves because there current level of ability is not high enough, then I disagree. Because:
    Nothing to do with ability of the attendees, all to do with the quality of teaching..I've seen the best Swing instructors in the world deliver Advanced patterns,technique to a beginners class and see them get it purely because of his level of understanding and ability to make it easy to understand


    1 Ceroc have been critisised for their lack of teaching "technique". Within their teaching model the way they are now trying to remedy this is by introducing an advanced move. How else would you suggest they remedy it?
    Who has criticised this?? Also the more technique they teach the less people they will get through the door! but if you have time for a Adv move or something different then give them something that will improve them

    2 I supsect the success or failure of this will depend alot on the quality of teachers giving the lesson. As you have stated if a teacher can design the teaching of these moves in a constructive manner everybody can get a benefit.
    totally agree, my worry is that there are not enough teachers who have sufficient knowledge about teaching Advanced technique to allow this to have a impact in the long term

    3 Presumably the training to be given to the teachers giving advanced move lessons will be increased therefore increasing their overall level of teaching competence.
    I don't think it's a question of increasing the amount of teaching but more ensuring that what teachers get taught actually gives them the right tools to teach Adv stuff



    4 Even if the techique required is above the ability level of most, if not all of the attendees then by learning from this negetive they will know what additional technique they need to get tuition on and if they use that knowledge, in the long term it will help them improve.
    I don't believe the technique required is above most of the class, i believe the technique required is certainly within the grasp of most of the class, It really isn't rocket science!


    What I think may be found in the short term is that not venues will do an advanced move every week. Some may find two weekly or monthly advanced move days will be useful.
    As with most things, try it out and see what the feedback is

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    This is the most common criticism I hear of 'advanced' ceroc when it's taught regularly. Unfortunately, without some mechanism to control the quality of dancers who do the advanced class (and this can be based in expectations rather than in any formal assessment).
    Yeah - for an advanced class, you need advanced dancers. And we've never defined what an advanced dancer is. But I think the idea about "qualification" is a good one.

    Even something simple like "You must have been dancing Ceroc for at least 2 years" would be better than nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    As I understand it, through those reliable sources of gossip, rumour and heresay, they are going to change the way moves are taught as well. For example, it's likely to be explicitly slotted
    That might make a difference - although it's been effectively slotted since Day 1. Unless they actually teach the concept of slotted dancing, it's unlikely to have much effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    (I hope they open the first move properly to make it flow... but that's probably asking too much).
    Actually, I'd hope they dump it entirely.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I don't believe the technique required is above most of the class, i believe the technique required is certainly within the grasp of most of the class, It really isn't rocket science!
    You'd think that, wouldn't you. I used to believe that people in the class will listen and follow what you're saying and what you're doing. Then I started teaching.

    In any class you will have more than one guy who starts off with the wrong hand, no matter how many times you say 'right to right'. They are the ones who need the lessons most - they are not advanced dancers, but they will attend your advanced lessons

    Answer? I don't have one. But I'm pretty sure the answer is not "make the lessons harder".

    We teach mixed ability classes. We're truly comprehensive in our education. The system isn't designed to bring people up to an advanced level. But we might be able to tweak it to make people think that they're advanced. A bit like lowering the standard so everyone gets an A-Grade.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    This whole lets teach Ceroc slotted as a new thing staggers me! People seem to have forgotten that Ceroc is taught from the stage with the teacher and Demo parallel to the class all of whom are slotted! I used to disguise trying to teach people to dance slotted all the time as saying it was for floor craft purposes and it reduces your chances of being kicked and elbowed by Mr 'i have no sense of location' dancer which of course it does do but i also think dancing slotted is a purer and easier form of lead and follow....All that needs to happen is that the teachers need to encourage the class to dance as they have learnt during the lesson!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I think Basic Technique would be more beneficial to People instead of an Advanced move! Hence what i think they need is to be able to dance better and not more complex moves which is probably what they want!
    Thanks for your above post in its entirety.

    The main point I got from it where I have a slightly different point of view is the above.

    I feel that a big feature of Ceroc teaching is that technique is taught in context in a regular class. What you are advocating above suggests moving away form this.

    I agree that Basic Techique is the most useful. What I would aim for if I was Ceroc was to structure, grade and coordinate all my classes so that levels of technique introduced depended on the level of class, beginner, intermediate or advanced. These were then backed up with technique only workshops to consolidate the Technique requirements at each given level.

    But is this possible?

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You'd think that, wouldn't you. I used to believe that people in the class will listen and follow what you're saying and what you're doing. Then I started teaching.

    In any class you will have more than one guy who starts off with the wrong hand, no matter how many times you say 'right to right'. They are the ones who need the lessons most - they are not advanced dancers, but they will attend your advanced lessons

    Answer? I don't have one. But I'm pretty sure the answer is not "make the lessons harder".

    We teach mixed ability classes. We're truly comprehensive in our education. The system isn't designed to bring people up to an advanced level. But we might be able to tweak it to make people think that they're advanced. A bit like lowering the standard so everyone gets an A-Grade.

    Great post Andy, I wanted to offer more technique and try to raise the overall standard of the MJ classes that i taught but then it became apparent that it wasn't what they really wanted and that became the sole reason why i gave up teaching weekly MJ classes because i felt that the platform/format didn't allow me to try and improve people's dancing, hence why i want to concentrate on teaching Workshops and on Weekenders.....But i do think that making the teachers better rather than the lessons harder is the route to follow!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    But i do think that making the teachers better rather than the lessons harder is the route to follow!
    When I watch the lesson being performed by the teacher and demonstrator, I want to see a wow factor. You want to feel that what they are doing is setting a target for you to try and acheive.

    Some teachers and I will use Paul and Cat as an example, I know this is un acheivable as they are so good.

    Some of the ceroc teachers I have seen I do not get this feeling which i think is a shame but if Ceroc is going to go and help these teachers with their own dancing and teaching I hope this will go some way to improve the overall standard of MJ dancing
    Last edited by DavidY; 23rd-December-2010 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Fixed quote

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Thanks for your above post in its entirety.

    The main point I got from it where I have a slightly different point of view is the above.

    I feel that a big feature of Ceroc teaching is that technique is taught in context in a regular class. What you are advocating above suggests moving away form this.

    I agree that Basic Techique is the most useful. What I would aim for if I was Ceroc was to structure, grade and coordinate all my classes so that levels of technique introduced depended on the level of class, beginner, intermediate or advanced. These were then backed up with technique only workshops to consolidate the Technique requirements at each given level.

    But is this possible?

    I personally like the idea of technique based workshops, but i don't think they have mass appeal! you never know though......I also like the idea of grading and more structure to the format and not the moves so much! But i do think in short the main focus has to be on improving the quality and knowledge of the teachers whether they are teaching in a primary school, University, Tech college or a Ceroc class..... Only with that improvement in the teachers will the overall standard of the class improve.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    But i do think that making the teachers better rather than the lessons harder is the route to follow!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    When I watch the lesson being performed by the teacher and demonstrator, I want to see a wow factor. You want to feel that what they are doing is setting a target for you to try and acheive.

    Some teachers and I will use Paul and Cat as an example, I know this is un acheivable as they are so good.

    Some of the ceroc teachers I have seen I do not get this feeling which i think is a shame but if Ceroc is going to go and help these teachers with their own dancing and teaching I hope this will go some way to improve the overall standard of MJ dancing

    It's all relative Gerry.....Most will never have seen Paul and Cat dance, But there is a flip side to it that sometimes it can scare people off too! and you are an old hand on this now! you've seen a million teacher dance i'm sure.....to a untrained eye or a newbie to the dance watching a couple demo a nice beginners/Intermediate routine is an inspiring thing for sure
    Last edited by DavidY; 23rd-December-2010 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Fixed quote

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    This whole lets teach Ceroc slotted as a new thing staggers me! People seem to have forgotten that Ceroc is taught from the stage with the teacher and Demo parallel to the class all of whom are slotted!
    Indeed. But presumably there's a difference between teaching which just happens to be slotted, and teaching to dance in a slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    i also think dancing slotted is a purer and easier form of lead and follow....
    I'm not sure how that works - can you elaborate?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    All that needs to happen is that the teachers need to encourage the class to dance as they have learnt during the lesson!
    I think if you want to teach dancing in a slot, then you need to at least mention the concept of a slot in the class. You can't rely on people picking it up automatically.

    And this "slot-based dancing" stuff from Ceroc seems to me to be a simple marketing ploy - they want to make it look a bit like "Easy WCS".

    There's nothing inherently "better" about dancing in a slot, it's simply a stylistic variation, in the same way LA style salsa is one variation, and Cuban style is another variation. Dancing in a slot won't magically cure technique issues.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Unless I have got it all wrong I would say that in a average class of mixed ability dancers of lets say 100,the number of people that dance with technique as well as ability would be no more than 3 or 4%.
    From my observation,the average class attendee doesnt go to Ceroc to learn technique.Their priority is to learn how to execute a move whether it's beginner.intermediate or advanced.They interpret each one as having a greater degree of difficulty than the other.Heavens above the majority of dancers have enough trouble learning the moves never mind trying to teach technique.
    Reading the posts on this thread,there are obviously quite a few who are concerned that any moves are taught correctly with technique and direction but this forum appears to be in no way indicative of your average Ceroc dancer.
    The bottom line is that as far as I can see the average dancer will be satisfied with learning as many moves as possible.Whether they achieve that with flair and technique,I very much doubt.It may come in time as the moves become easier to achieve but I really dont think you will have much success trying to teach it.
    You only have to stand on the side of the dancefloor and observe the number of dancers going thro the motions of moves,sometimes very poorly and realise that teaching anything other than the basic fundamentals of a move would be completely wasted.
    That is not to say that there isnt a place for teaching all the techniques required to make those moves look better and feel better but I am not sure of the answer and I am equally not so sure it works in the mass class situation.

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