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Thread: First 3 Moves...

  1. #21
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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    How does that one go? Sounds awfully complicated - armjive is a nice easy beginner move, but a travelling one would've put me in panic mode..
    The travelling arm jive is also called the grinder. The reason I do it as a basic move is that it incorporates the basic walking footwork of MJ and looks better than the regular arm jive.

    The thing with the regular arm jive is that it is one of the few moves that requires the weight to be placed on each foot for 2 beats. To me it always looks like something you'd do while you were marking time and trying to think of the next move - I still teach it because it's a nice safety zone for beginners, but I rarely see intermediate dancers doing the basic arm jive.

    The travelling arm jive is a really simple move which I find people learn in a few minutes.

    1. The guy sends the lady back
    2. Draws her forward into his right hand side pulling gently from the right elbow taking the left hand to the left and keeping both hands at hip height
    3. As he changes places with the lady he pushes with his left hand and pulls with his right as he turns 180 to face the way he's come. This should turn the lady 180 to face the guy.

    When I teach this move we usually repeat 3 times.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Although it depends why the guy wants to learn, something that hasn't been mentioned is beginner women - ie the people he's most likely to dance with!

    I agree with David

    - Arm Jive: transfer of weight and "keep moving" default move (maybe do a travelling versin where you take several steps to go around rather than full 180 turns)
    - In and out / side-to-side: accordion motion
    - Turn / return: turning (leading and following)


    should work on 99% of beginner followers, so he can actually dance rather than think "why isn't it working?!

    In all honesty I can't lead the basket, catapult, yo-yo, octopus, first move etc properly on all beginners.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    You ever coming over for a visit Prian ? I am sure lots of us would love to meet you and maybe a dance or two (including me)


    Very kind of you to say. I may come by April but definitely within the year.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Well Yli, its seems its all pretty much clear cut then!
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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    I'd avoid teaching the First Move, it teaches very little about technique.
    Poppycock!!!!!

    The First moves has plenty of technique in it if taught correctly - tension, compression, frame, weight transfer, turning/spining (including prep).

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    this has made for very interesting reading!!! and given me lots to think about!!

    had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.

    the student is a friend of mine - I'm not getting paid - so making money is not part of the equation - no group classes for him to attend.


    my intention is to teach technique with moves - as that is the format I'm used to from teaching in Aus, where lead/follow/technique are taught as part of the moves. Technique doesn't sit independently of moves - they work together how do you teach someone correct arm tension is they are actually using it....



    first move was/is top of my list - as when taught wtih foot work - it offers a lot points for teaching leading, connection, tension etc


    2nd on my list was

    wurlitzer - as it is a move that can have a lot of variables


    after that I was considering

    octopus

    basket

    once again good moves for building on

    another one that just occured to me was neck break...

    so what are peoples thoughts on the moves I'm considering??


    the goal is to teach him moves and technique to go with them so that he can lead a whole dance with them.... most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here


    and now I must get on with unpacking - I hate moving house

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    this has made for very interesting reading!!! and given me lots to think about!!

    had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.

    the student is a friend of mine - I'm not getting paid - so making money is not part of the equation - no group classes for him to attend.


    my intention is to teach technique with moves - as that is the format I'm used to from teaching in Aus, where lead/follow/technique are taught as part of the moves. Technique doesn't sit independently of moves - they work together how do you teach someone correct arm tension is they are actually using it....



    first move was/is top of my list - as when taught wtih foot work - it offers a lot points for teaching leading, connection, tension etc


    2nd on my list was

    wurlitzer - as it is a move that can have a lot of variables


    after that I was considering

    octopus

    basket

    once again good moves for building on

    another one that just occured to me was neck break...

    so what are peoples thoughts on the moves I'm considering??


    the goal is to teach him moves and technique to go with them so that he can lead a whole dance with them.... most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here


    and now I must get on with unpacking - I hate moving house
    Ok - I'll throw in my perspective on your choices:

    1. First Move - YES - a no-brainer, and because it is a building block for a lot of other possibilities.

    2. Wurlitzer? - hmmm. Maybe - but I would go for Arm Jive above that.

    3. Octopus: no! I well remember getting myself in a pickle (Octopus pickle anyone? ) over this - and having a remedial catch up with the teacher. That maybe just me having difficulty with armography....

    4. Basket - yes.

    The other one to consider as well would be a Sway.

    Good luck!

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Poppycock!!!!!

    The First moves has plenty of technique in it if taught correctly - tension, compression, frame, weight transfer, turning/spining (including prep).
    To expand on this, the 1st move does cover all of these aspects mentioned by Alinap however i'd teach the 1st move more like a WCS Whip as the usual way it is taught in MJ doesn't really work from a lead/follow point of view

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Maybe it would be better if there is time, to get him to buy a beginners dvd from John Sweeny (http://modernjive.com/) or look on ebay for one of the ceroc beginner dvds they were giving away a while back.

    That way you could spend time teaching him technique rather than actual beginner moves.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Poppycock!!!!!
    Well, if you add in multiple exclamation marks, it must be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    The First moves has plenty of technique in it if taught correctly - tension, compression, frame, weight transfer, turning/spining (including prep).
    You could make that argument for many many moves - e.g. the Catapult.

    Whilst I agree that you do need that technique to execute the First Move correctly, I really don't think it's appropriate to try to have a multiple-technique-in-one-move mapping, especially for beginners. I find that lessons are more effective when each movement is used to highlight one specific area of technique.

    The First Move is good if you want something that looks complex, that people can grasp quickly, and that fools the untrained eye into thinking you're dancing. But that's about it. There's nothing special about the First Move, it's just another sequence.

    In addition, I'd argue that it's a sequence which is not (in my view) particularly "natural" to the dance. Although admittedly that's simply my subjective view.

  11. #31
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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.
    It highlights the basic "move to the beat" principle, plus "you have to lead your partner". Remember, this is a beginner. The Arm Jive will look cool to him

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    my intention is to teach technique with moves - as that is the format I'm used to from teaching in Aus, where lead/follow/technique are taught as part of the moves. Technique doesn't sit independently of moves - they work together how do you teach someone correct arm tension is they are actually using it....
    Agree.

    That said, I still think you're move-focussed - I'd suggest you start with a list of key techniques, and then find moves to illustrate those techniques, rather than the other way around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    the goal is to teach him moves and technique to go with them so that he can lead a whole dance with them.... most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here
    It's very difficult to lead a lot of those moves on non-dancers; at least, I'd find it tricky.

    Whereas simple in-and-out / arm-jive / walkaround based movements are much easier to lead on non-dancer.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    had even't considered the arm jive - as it's a move that seems completely blah and didn't think it offered much in terms of technique.
    Personally, I think the Arm Jive is a really naff move, which if you try to make look any good at all, you end up going against all most important rules of lead and follow. Like completely ignoring any tension and compression etc.
    If you follow all the rules properly, you both end up looking like some weird clockwork dolls!
    Oh, and if the guy also marks time, with a nice clear hand bound......... and you follow correctly
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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    PS (As someone else mentioned?) I would introduce the Side-to-Side pretty quickly as non-dancers he might dance with would get this very quickly.

    (And I have noticed that it puts a smile on beginners/non-dancer faces -maybe because you are doing something in unison to the music (.. .. or perhaps it is just Jive Lad's mildly entertaining grin.....).

    Of course, it is not the kind of move Intermediate, Advanced and Hotshot dancers would consider as a quintessential part of their rich and eclectic dance tapestry.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    PS (As someone else mentioned?)
    Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I would introduce the Side-to-Side pretty quickly as non-dancers he might dance with would get this very quickly.
    Yes - and obviously it highlights the accordion motion that's an inherent part of classic MJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Of course, it is not the kind of move Intermediate, Advanced and Hotshot dancers would consider as a quintessential part of their rich and eclectic dance tapestry.
    I don't do it much, but that's mainly because I don't often dance accordion-stylee. Like any move, it's the way that you do it which matters.

    There are no naff moves.

    Well, except the Tunnel.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Me!


    Yes - and obviously it highlights the accordion motion that's an inherent part of classic MJ.


    I don't do it much, but that's mainly because I don't often dance accordion-stylee. Like any move, it's the way that you do it which matters.

    There are no naff moves.

    Well, except the Tunnel.
    Isn'y it called the Man's nelson ladies tunnel man's tunnel?? It is also taught with footwork!

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Of course, it is not the kind of move Intermediate, Advanced and Hotshot dancers would consider as a quintessential part of their rich and eclectic dance tapestry.
    Maybe not but its one of those moves you can 'style up'

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    There are no naff moves.
    No but some people manage to make even the slickest of moves look naff!
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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    most likely with a non-dancer as there isn't a very big dance scene here
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    It's very difficult to lead a lot of those moves on non-dancers; at least, I'd find it tricky.

    Whereas simple in-and-out / arm-jive / walkaround based movements are much easier to lead on non-dancer.


    I think you're trying to solve the wrong problem. Although Ceroc gets touted as the dance you can do at weddings etc, in practice it isn't. The weddings I've been to with a mix of dancers and non-dancers eg Taz's and Twirly's, the Cerocers danced almost exclusively with each other. Sometimes you'll meet someone who's done some salsa and there's enough middle ground to muddle through.

    Likewise Dizzy once bought a non-dancer along to Slinkys. There were arguably some of the top leaders in London there - it didn't go particularly well...

    A lot of technique etc is going to be extremely difficult to use effectively on someone who doesn't know their part.

    If you think about it, it makes sense. If the beginners moves are leadable without the follower knowing anything, women would just skip straight to intermediate classes.

    Regarding the specific moves you mentioned - I wouldn't go with any of them, they're just not going to work on non-dancers. Again the ones David's mentioned are you best bet in my experience, having had to answer "So what does Ceroc look like?" for various friends. Manspin works quite well if the guy just turns rather than actually spins. Cerocspins are fairly intuitive to follow too.

    Hope that helps

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Maybe not but its one of those moves you can 'style up'

    Pls remind me on our next dance - and I look forward to styling it up with ya

    ......before I once again attempt the 'Jack-in-the-box' move with you......

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    I've said my bit and still think the first move holds pretty much all the technique you'll need.

    Armjive - oh please God no!

    As for a DVD - perhaps something more up to date? http://www.simonandnicole.com/dvd.asp

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The thing with the regular arm jive is that it is one of the few moves that requires the weight to be placed on each foot for 2 beats. To me it always looks like something you'd do while you were marking time
    It's probably stylistically awful to watch and horrendous to follow, but these days when I lead an armjive I tend to shift my weight from foot to foot as I turn the lady.

    Means less twisting on my dodgy knees and avoids the 'static man' problem.

    However, I'm also trying to learn how to not lead it at all except with beginners (as it's a really really easy move for a first-night follower to follow even if she hasn't been taught it).


    Regarding the First Move, this isn't necessarily an easy one to teach or learn, but as pointed out, it does give an opportunity to teach an awful lot of technique as a way of highlighting how to make the move work. If that's what you want to teach..

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