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Thread: First 3 Moves...

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    First 3 Moves...

    I've got a beginner private student starting next week and have been considering which 3 moves are best to start with for a lead...

    and thought I would see what opinion was here....

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    1. First Move

    2. Arm Jive Push Spin

    3. Catapult.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    1. First Move

    2. Arm Jive Push Spin

    3. Catapult.
    Not the Catapult - that is difficult one for a very new beginner

    You need a turning move - forgotten the move names under-arm turn ???


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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    2. Arm Jive Push Spin.
    I never teach the push spin to beginners - and I can't remember the last time I taught it to anybody at all! It's because a spin is much more intuitive if it's led somewhere near the lady's centre of gravity - leading a spin with a flat hand at shoulder height is more likely to put the lady off balance or get the lady to travel and complete the turn in 2 beats rather than spin on the spot in one beat.

    My advice is to teach the following;

    1. Travelling arm jive with a travelling return to finish
    2. Manspin collecting right to right
    3. Travelling ladyspin with a return on the spot to finish and collect the lady's spare hand to start again.

    This is the routine I teach when I have a class where everyone is a beginner. You know the kind of thing, weddings, PTA socials, etc.

    This routine has plenty of change place moves and the lady is mostly doing 180 pivot turns on each beat/step rather than 360 degree turns on each beat/step - the final turn is a 360 but that comes at the end of the routine. Another good thing with this routine is that the travelling return from the travelling arm jive is just like the 'girl goes through' bit of the octopus.

    What this routine does not have is the guy turning under his own hand. Beginner guys find this difficult and is the reason some guys struggle with 'the guy goes trough' bit the octopus. And the catapult is a very difficult move for beginners with loads of stuff going on - it's almost a routine on it's own!

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    1. Travelling arm jive with a travelling return to finish
    How does that one go? Sounds awfully complicated - armjive is a nice easy beginner move, but a travelling one would've put me in panic mode..


    Normal armjive is much nicer than a pushspin one for me - but that may be personal preference.

    My first class taught Armjive Swizzle, Basket and Shoulder Slide, and I still think that's a nasty starter

    If you can go beyond 3 moves (and I don't know whether that becomes too much to take in, as I'm not a teacher) throw in the backpass - there's nothing worse as a beginner than finding yourself right-to-right with bugger all options available to you. The link moves (shoulder slide, manspin, backpass) and the momentum moves (step across, travelling return) made a massive difference to getting through a whole song as a beginner.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Yli, my opinion.

    I like the plain arm jive, it is good for a newbie guy and easy to get to grips with.

    I'd add a man spin, to start the guy off understanding he has to move too

    Then I'd maybe go for a basket or an octopus

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    1. syncopated pretzel
    2. tumble drier
    3. back to the future

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    1. suger push
    2. left side pass
    3. whip


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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Not the Catapult - that is difficult one for a very new beginner

    You need a turning move - forgotten the move names under-arm turn ???
    You might have a point. Could probably swap it for a basket. Though when I started Ceroc the catapult was taught as a dedicated beginners move.

    Falling standards eh!! Bit like A'levels.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    - leading a spin with a flat hand at shoulder height is more likely to put the lady off balance or get the lady to travel and complete the turn in 2 beats

    I haven't taught/taxied since 2001. But in my experience a slight push downwards with the man's flat hand from shoulder height allows the lady to spin just fine. And isn't that what Ceroc teaches/taught?

    Though they have changed teaching techniques on a number of moves. I was taught the Wurlitzer where the man stands at a slight angle away from the lady and as he flings her hand for the spin he turns toward her and stamps (yes taught to stamp). I know that is taught quite differently now.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I haven't taught/taxied since 2001.......
    You ever coming over for a visit Prian ? I am sure lots of us would love to meet you and maybe a dance or two (including me)


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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    I've got a beginner private student starting next week and have been considering which 3 moves are best to start with for a lead...

    and thought I would see what opinion was here....

    A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first! He can get moves from anywhere! In fact i'd even suggest he goes to some beginners classes first so he get some basic understanding, you then have something to build on! It's not moves we need!

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly!
    But how will Yli make any money with that attitude? Didn't you know the customer is always right, even when they are actually ill informed bystanders.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    But how will Yli make any money with that attitude? Didn't you know the customer is always right, even when they are actually ill informed bystanders.

    She didn't say that is what the customer asked for??? and i would hope it is not about making money but even if Yils intention is soley to make money then i believe getting repeat business comes from the customer seeing themselves progress, if you teach him moves rather than learning how to dance then he can''t possibly improve as a dancer, he'll probably end up being a pattern machine, and as i said he can get a million patterns from DVD`s or classes but what he can't get from classes is how to dance properly! I've learnt through experience that the people still taking repeat lessons are the ones who want to learn how to become better dancers rather than wanting more moves! People will quickly and ultimately get bored of patterns!

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time!
    If he learns moves then it is hardly a waste of time.

    You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first! He can get moves from anywhere!
    The Ceroc/leroc principle of learning moves first does allow for a greater understanding of "how to dance" later on - probably most of us learnt that way. And doing it the other way round - learning physicallity, musicallity and allowing the moves to flow naturally from that...would probably have lead to a class drop-out rate of 90% or so. We don't know the full situation for this particular person, but for you to suggest "he can get moves from anywhere" is silly - let me sarcastically state that you tend to only get them from a modern jive class or a person willing to teach you, and he is choosing to get them via a private lesson with Yli.


    In fact i'd even suggest he goes to some beginners classes first so he get some basic understanding, you then have something to build on! It's not moves we need!
    Yes it is. No it isnt. It depends. Also, I have to take issue with you logic here - you say its not moves we need, then suggest that he goes to some beginners classes which will mostly teach him...think about it!

    Worst advice ever : 2 out of 10.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    I've got a beginner private student starting next week and have been considering which 3 moves are best to start with for a lead...
    I'd avoid teaching the First Move, it teaches very little about technique.

    In fact, I'd avoid teaching any of the "complex moves" - pretzel, catapult, etc. (Although see caveat at the end of this post)

    I did a private "basics" class a couple of weeks ago (yes, I know, don't tell anyone!), we covered a small set of fundamentals, each covering a fundamental area:

    - Arm Jive: transfer of weight and "keep moving" default move
    - In and out / side-to-side: accordion motion
    - Turn / return: turning (leading and following)

    That said, typically, I think the problem for total beginner leads is in the "what to do next" bit - they can't go from one movement to another, all their concentration is on other things. Which is why, if they get taught a "routine", it's much easier for them to grasp, and it's easier for them to fake being able to lead.

    So if you teach the lead those three, be aware that, to an untrained eye the lead will initially look less like "a dancer" than someone doing a relatively complex routine - because most untrained eyes won't notice that the routine is being repeated all the time. So be prepared to see a lot of arm jives in the dance

    One way to get around this is to teach one "flash" move per lesson. I did the Teapot, they seemed to enjoy it.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first!
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    But how will Yli make any money with that attitude? Didn't you know the customer is always right, even when they are actually ill informed bystanders.
    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    She didn't say that is what the customer asked for??? and i would hope it is not about making money but even if Yils intention is soley to make money then i believe getting repeat business comes from the customer seeing themselves progress
    But what you said here is my point exactly. When you start as a beginner, you just want to be able to string a few moves together and that in itself is progress to a novice. Personally, I think "learning how to move your body" either comes naturally, or can sort of be taught over time once basic moves have been learnt, but not in all cases.

    What about people (we all know at least one) who have been religiously dancing for years and years, go to classes 2 or 3 times a week, know all the moves, but will never ever move properly while dancing or be capable of any form of musicality. Should Yli tell them they're a lost cause and not offer any lessons at all? She wont know what they're capable of until she tries a few moves with them to begin with.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    But what you said here is my point exactly. When you start as a beginner, you just want to be able to string a few moves together and that in itself is progress to a novice. Personally, I think "learning how to move your body" either comes naturally, or can sort of be taught over time once basic moves have been learnt, but not in all cases.

    What about people (we all know at least one) who have been religiously dancing for years and years, go to classes 2 or 3 times a week, know all the moves, but will never ever move properly while dancing or be capable of any form of musicality. Should Yli tell them they're a lost cause and not offer any lessons at all? She wont know what they're capable of until she tries a few moves with them to begin with.
    Of course she shouldn't tell them they are a lost cause or refuse to offer lessons, i simply think the best course of action for Private tuition is to concentrate on teaching the things that you cannot get from a Class format! In the class format you can get your moves/patterns but what teachers on stage can never do is tailor the teaching to individuals, So i'm simply saying i think he would progress faster if he was taught technique from the outset rather than moves!

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    But what you said here is my point exactly. When you start as a beginner, you just want to be able to string a few moves together and that in itself is progress to a novice.
    And in a group class, that's why they teach a routine. But in a private lesson, a teacher should be able to educate the student, and provide them what they need (technique), as well as what they want (moves).

    You pretty much have to cover some technique in a private - otherwise why have a private in the first place?

    Sure, commercial reasons (you want the student to return) mean that you should give them some sweeties in terms of moves. But you also need to stretch the student and get them to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Personally, I think "learning how to move your body" either comes naturally, or can sort of be taught over time once basic moves have been learnt, but not in all cases.
    I'd have to disagree. I'd also say that, for teaching a lead, leading definitely does not come naturally. Learning moves teaches you nothing about how to lead.

    (Caveat: I assume Yli's done a reasonable amount of leading herself)

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    What about people (we all know at least one) who have been religiously dancing for years and years, go to classes 2 or 3 times a week, know all the moves, but will never ever move properly while dancing or be capable of any form of musicality. Should Yli tell them they're a lost cause and not offer any lessons at all?
    No, she should offer them technique-based classes.

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    Re: First 3 Moves...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    A private lesson to learn moves is a waste of time! You need to teach him how to dance and move his body correctly! Get him to understand those sound principals first!
    Yeah! In fact he should have started at birth! We're all doomed

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