First 3 Moves...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Maybe it would be better if there is time, to get him to buy a beginners dvd from John Sweeny (http://modernjive.com/) or look on ebay for one of the ceroc beginner dvds they were giving away a while back.

That way you could spend time teaching him technique rather than actual beginner moves.

Not everyone can learn from DVDs. Not that they are not capable, just that they find it a dry experience and non-interactive. You can't shout "what the hell are you on about" and expect an answer from anyone other than your neighbours. Like many people, as a beginner I bought several videos, as it was in those days, of both Jive and Salsa, I watched them a couple of times but never once treated them as a class and they were ultimately a complete waste of money.



...but some would argue so were any classes i ever went to

[Ghost]

A few important points about dancing with non-dancers.

Pretty much whichever beginners class you first do in Ceroc, by the end of it a follower has learnt about the accordion step in step out nature of Ceroc and how returns work.

The thing is neither of these are completely intuitive. A perfectly reasonable response to being led to take a step back is to stay still and let the leader move your hand closer to your tummy while he steps back. Likewise the lead for an acw and a cw turn / return is pretty much identical, your hand is lifted in the air, so unless you know the "code" that it's the opposite direction to the way you just turned, it's completely reasonable to go either way.

So if these elements don't work, you don't have much hope trying to lead more complicated moves

[Lee Bartholomew]

Not everyone can learn from DVDs. Not that they are not capable, just that they find it a dry experience and non-interactive. You can't shout "what the hell are you on about" and expect an answer from anyone other than your neighbours. Like many people, as a beginner I bought several videos, as it was in those days, of both Jive and Salsa, I watched them a couple of times but never once treated them as a class and they were ultimately a complete waste of money.



...but some would argue so were any classes i ever went to

I too brought some and never even opened them.

[Rocky]

Of course she shouldn't tell them they are a lost cause or refuse to offer lessons, i simply think the best course of action for Private tuition is to concentrate on teaching the things that you cannot get from a Class format! In the class format you can get your moves/patterns but what teachers on stage can never do is tailor the teaching to individuals, So i'm simply saying i think he would progress faster if he was taught technique from the outset rather than moves!

Good grief! Is! Your! Exclamation mark! Key stuck on!!? One of the reasons why WCS or any technique lead dance is far less popular than MJ in this country is because in MJ Teachers don't major on technique as a separate exercise (that doesn't mean they don't teach it..) at the outset. MJ's whole structure is based around getting people through the door and dancing so that they feel that they want to come back - and the same is true of private lessons. You can teach all the technique you like but if your students get so bored they don’t come back you need to ask who that helps? The teacher who’s fixated on teaching technique, or the customer who doesn’t know what he/she wants to learn but knows that they want to experience something about what dancing is about?

Who says you can't teach technique by using moves? In fact teaching technique by using the beginners moves puts that technique into perspective and makes it far more relevant - or are you telling me that you teach dancers about compression by getting then to lean against a wall rather than getting them to practice a sugar push with an actual partner?

I'd avoid teaching the First Move, it teaches very little about technique....

What a load of old fanny...

The starting point of technique in MJ is to get people using the correct hand hold and hand height, putting their weight back onto their back foot and to have the correct arm tension (which of course they would do at the start of the 1st move). Next, for the lead the 1st move teaches the leader to step forwards (or in alternate versions to step to the side and use body weight to lead their partner) and for the follow to respond to the lead by following from the centre rather than arm first, feet second. At this point you would also explain that the follow shouldn't pre-empt the twist and to learn to follow on a beat by beat basis. The lead is then shown how using connection points can move their partner in the direction they require and for the follow it explains how the dynamics of lead and follow makes their body move and also gets them used to the concept of their centre following the direction of their leading hand. The twist forward again is using connection points demonstrating lead and follow and the guys hand to the shoulder explains the importance of hand heights in signalling where the move might go next. If you teach the guy to swing their hand out to their left after the turn and the lady to move their weight to follow their leading hand it also means your explaining how that weight shift and lead will allow the follow to turn back onto the slot rather than off it too..... so you’re right ‘very little technique’ in all of that... Deeeerrrr...

[straycat]

MJ's whole structure is based around getting people through the door and dancing so that they feel that they want to come back - and the same is true of private lessons. You can teach all the technique you like but if your students get so bored they don’t come back you need to ask who that helps?

Absolutely true about the classes - and from what Yliander is saying it's very much true in this case, but with private lessons it's very much a matter of what the customer wants... and when I teach privates, more often than not people want an emphasis on technique.

or are you telling me that you teach dancers about compression by getting then to lean against a wall rather than getting them to practice a sugar push with an actual partner?

Interestingly, often in a private lesson or workshop situation (and just occasionally in a class, if the situation warrants it), I do exactly that. The wall exercise is an excellent way of teaching people the difference in feeling between a body lead and an arm lead. It helps stop people from automatically arm-leading a sugar push (for example)

A lot of t/c and footwork teaching can be made much easier by taking the moves out of it, and using simple exercises to help people get stuff into muscle memory. Howver - if taking that approach, it's crucial to then take those exercises, and teach the practical applications - in other words, to fit the skills gained into actual moves.

My apologies for the fact that most of this post isn't really directly relevant to the thread.

[Rocky]

Absolutely true about the classes - and from what Yliander is saying it's very much true in this case, but with private lessons it's very much a matter of what the customer wants... and when I teach privates, more often than not people want an emphasis on technique.

Of course, but I'm guessing you teach privates mostly to people who can already dance? I've never experienced any beginner coming in and saying let's forget about the dancing and give me 2 hours just on technique to warm me up please..

Interestingly, often in a private lesson or workshop situation (and just occasionally in a class, if the situation warrants it), I do exactly that. The wall exercise is an excellent way of teaching people the difference in feeling between a body lead and an arm lead. It helps stop people from automatically arm-leading a sugar push (for example)

A lot of t/c and footwork teaching can be made much easier by taking the moves out of it, and using simple exercises to help people get stuff into muscle memory. Howver - if taking that approach, it's crucial to then take those exercises, and teach the practical applications - in other words, to fit the skills gained into actual moves.

My apologies for the fact that most of this post isn't really directly relevant to the thread.

Walls are very useful, but technique is pointless (as you say) unless it's applied, and the easiest way to do that is to show the dynamics in action within the structure of a move.

[David Bailey]

Who says you can't teach technique by using moves?

It depends on your perspective. Personally I think teaching moves to illustrate technique is better, but it's arguably a chicken-and-egg thing.

Re: First Move

The starting point of technique in MJ is to get people using the correct hand hold and hand height, putting their weight back onto their back foot and to have the correct arm tension (which of course they would do at the start of the 1st move). Next, for the lead the 1st move teaches the leader to step forwards (or in alternate versions to step to the side and use body weight to lead their partner) and for the follow to respond to the lead by following from the centre rather than arm first, feet second. At this point you would also explain that the follow shouldn't pre-empt the twist and to learn to follow on a beat by beat basis. The lead is then shown how using connection points can move their partner in the direction they require and for the follow it explains how the dynamics of lead and follow makes their body move and also gets them used to the concept of their centre following the direction of their leading hand. The twist forward again is using connection points demonstrating lead and follow and the guys hand to the shoulder explains the importance of hand heights in signalling where the move might go next. If you teach the guy to swing their hand out to their left after the turn and the lady to move their weight to follow their leading hand it also means your explaining how that weight shift and lead will allow the follow to turn back onto the slot rather than off it too..... so you’re right ‘very little technique’ in all of that... Deeeerrrr...

Actually, you're correct.

What I meant to say was that there's too much technique needed in the First Move to make it useful as a, well, first move. There's multiple technique areas, and trying to learn all of them at once is just too confusing for a beginner.

My approach would be to map one technique area to one set of movements; that's what I find works best for me. If you try to do everything, you typically end up with nothing.

So. yes, the First Move contains a lot of technique. It's just not very good as a movement to illustrate technique, because there's so much technique in that sequence.

[David Bailey]

Re: "wall-work"

Interestingly, often in a private lesson or workshop situation (and just occasionally in a class, if the situation warrants it), I do exactly that. The wall exercise is an excellent way of teaching people the difference in feeling between a body lead and an arm lead. It helps stop people from automatically arm-leading a sugar push (for example)

I occasionally teach / learn this way in AT also - for example, when working on dissociation for followers, doing ochos with straight arms against the wall helps to keep their upper bodies facing the wall.

The ideal situation is with a bar and mirrors (classic ballet studio setup in other words), so that you can also see what your body is doing.

Walls are good.

Mind you, as most of my classes are in a gym studio, I've also managed to bring in punching-bag dummies, steppers, weights, and gym balls - I've not found a use yet for the spin cycles or the pole-dance podium, but give me time

A lot of t/c and footwork teaching can be made much easier by taking the moves out of it, and using simple exercises to help people get stuff into muscle memory. Howver - if taking that approach, it's crucial to then take those exercises, and teach the practical applications - in other words, to fit the skills gained into actual moves.

Yes - technique first, then moves to illustrate and exercise that technique.

That's my preferred approach also.

Whereas, I suspect the Ceroc mindset is "moves first, technique later".

[marcusj]

1. syncopated pretzel
2. tumble drier
3. back to the future

I love the tumble drier !

The yoyo felt good when I first started.

[robd]

The twist forward again is using connection points demonstrating lead and follow

Is the first move still 'officially' taught with man's RH on ladies hip to twist or on their shoulder blade? I've always thought the former much trickier to achieve than the latter.

[Andy McGregor]

Good grief! Is! Your! Exclamation mark! Key stuck on!!? One of the reasons why WCS or any technique lead dance is far less popular than MJ in this country is because in MJ Teachers don't major on technique as a separate exercise (that doesn't mean they don't teach it..) at the outset.

snip loads of sensible advice

Deeeerrrr...

It seems like someone has got hold of Rocky's account. But it's someone sensible so I suggest they change the password and stop the stroppy, idiotic Rocky from ever coming here again

[straycat]

Of course, but I'm guessing you teach privates mostly to people who can already dance?

A bit of both.

I've never experienced any beginner coming in and saying let's forget about the dancing and give me 2 hours just on technique to warm me up please..

Noooo - but that's taking things to extremes. We do generally start beginners off with a small amount of technique / warm-up and basic connection work before introducing moves. Done right, we can give them a basic grounding, build some moves on top of that, and still send them away on a high - which is the part which helps with customer retention.

Walls are very useful, but technique is pointless (as you say) unless it's applied, and the easiest way to do that is to show the dynamics in action within the structure of a move.

However... if you introduce techniques as purely part of moves, there can often be too many different aspects for people to focus on, and specifics can easily get lost. The sugar-push is a good example - a deceptively simple move that is surprisingly difficult to learn or teach well. So if I want to stop people arm-leading it (for example) I generally find it much more effective to devise exercises in body-leading that work in isolation - the wall exercise being one good example - before putting all the pieces together.

[straycat]

I love the tumble drier !

Me too. Especially that lovely crisp feeling when you take the clothes out just after it stops, still lovely and hot from the drying process.

I honestly don't know how we coped without them.

[Rocky]

It seems like someone has got hold of Rocky's account. But it's someone sensible so I suggest they change the password and stop the stroppy, idiotic Rocky from ever coming here again

You've been saying that for about a year now Andy....

[Rocky]

...However... if you introduce techniques as purely part of moves, there can often be too many different aspects for people to focus on, and specifics can easily get lost. The sugar-push is a good example - a deceptively simple move that is surprisingly difficult to learn or teach well. So if I want to stop people arm-leading it (for example) I generally find it much more effective to devise exercises in body-leading that work in isolation - the wall exercise being one good example - before putting all the pieces together.

Ok, well I guess we look at it differently... If I use the basic step back as an example and teach it ensuring that people have good tension in their arm (so they don't stretch ther arm right out), you can teach that all day long as a technique, and they can do it perfectly without a partner. The moment they hold someone's hand they feel a need to move toward the point of connection and it all falls to pieces - even more so with a travelling return. My view therefore is that it's best taught as part of the move because they then fully experience it in real time with a partner.

IMO if you teach specifics and then combine them, the person is more likely to get confused as he/she is thinking about combining seperated techniques all at once. Whereas if you teach it holistically they better understand the connection between them.

But if it works for you and your pupils then that's all that matters..

[Andy McGregor]

You've been saying that for about a year now Andy....

And it's still taking me by surprise

[Dreadful Scathe]

I love the tumble drier !

The yoyo felt good when I first started.

i like the tumble drier too, very difficult move though (at least difficult move to make look good), awful for a beginner of course(thanks Dan the Man). Pretzels can look great i think, if you let them flow and put the syncopated pa-pow at the end (thanks Amir). And if there isnt a move called the "back to the future "- there should be

[Prian]

I think the move is called the half nelson. It involves the man turning so that his back is to the lady and his left arm behind his back in a half nelson, then bending at the waist and turning anti-clockwise 360.

Can anyone remember the name. Anyway, that was taught by Sylvie Coleman (Ceroc co-founder), as a beginners move. She must have had a lot of confidence in us.

Then again Viktor used to try and teach the beginners how to shimmy.

[straycat]

Ok, well I guess we look at it differently... If I use the basic step back as an example and teach it ensuring that people have good tension in their arm (so they don't stretch ther arm right out), you can teach that all day long as a technique, and they can do it perfectly without a partner. The moment they hold someone's hand they feel a need to move toward the point of connection and it all falls to pieces

Aye - most connection exercises that we use involve a partner. Interestingly, the first beginners' lessons I ever did with Ceroc always began with very simple a tension/compression exercise with a basic left to right handhold with your partner, just stepping in and out. At the time, I found it very useful - I don't know if anyone still does this though.

One of the issues I find with teaching all the technique within the move is that people pften have too many different things to think about to let them easily focus on one aspect. If I see a lot of people in a class making a particular mistake, and I try to get them to correct it, sometimes they won't be able to take it on board. One approach I might take to deal with this is to put the move aside for a moment, and create a quick exercise based around that one thing, get them to do it, then put it back into the move. I find this can be extremely effective.

But if it works for you and your pupils then that's all that matters..

It is a slightly different arena from MJ. On the whole, Lindyhoppers (and, come to think, Blues dancers) tend to expect more in the way of technique - as extreme examples, at one camp we spent three hours with one teacher on just one eight-count move, breaking it down, refining, honing, perfecting.... and at another, two hours were spent learning to walk across a room in slightly different ways. Which sounds nuts, but it was actually extremely difficult, and I did gain a lot from it.