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Thread: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I think the one suggestion that's not been tried is the price-adjustment incentive - that is, making the cost more for women than for men. From what I recall, way back when, Stewart38 suggested this...
    I do find it ironic that after decades of women getting into clubs for free, women getting into dating agencies much cheaper, basically women getting serious financial advantages when they may otherwise be in short supply, finally I've found a hobby where there aren't enough men - and not a single discount out there.

    This doesn't encourage me to address gender imbalance issues at workshops, weekenders, etc.

    However, make it cheap for men and it's also cheaper for women to buy a throwaway male ticket alongside their female one. So it doesn't help anyway.

    I've pondered gender balancing approaches and no easy answers spring to mind (which is hardly surprising, or everyone would already have found them).

    In the meantime I'll continue to enjoy the advantages gender imbalances do give - late booking for weekenders, and women desperate enough for any dance that they'll even say yes to me.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    At Bliss a full page add stated...

    Some women were booking a chalet for 3 girls and 3 boys and other variations and then the boys dont turn up

    Suggesting these were not real bookings ie Ghost bookings. That women to get onto these events were deliberatly cheating the gender balance system
    The balance may have (on average) swung a moderate amount at Ceroc weekenders but it needn't have been deliberate.

    In these times men may be less able to make it and may be more likely to prioritise other things.

    Ceroc have sometimes taken gender balancing to excess, and this just takes the edge off it (as in reducing the tendency to move lots and lots of men on in classes).


    So to answer the question. What's gone wrong. Nothing at all.

  3. #23
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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The balance may have (on average) swung a moderate amount at Ceroc weekenders but it needn't have been deliberate.

    In these times men may be less able to make it and may be more likely to prioritise other things.

    Ceroc have sometimes taken gender balancing to excess, and this just takes the edge off it (as in reducing the tendency to move lots and lots of men on in classes).


    So to answer the question. What's gone wrong. Nothing at all.
    I'm quoting from a full page add in the ceroc weekender mag.

    Wasn't a major issue , may 5/8% more women and you need that (men dance longer more etc)

    Obviously for the record I DONT want to go back to Franco days that wasn't fun for anyone.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I have every sympathy for Ceroc HQ here; they make strenuous and costly efforts to try to ensure gender balancing, when they could clearly make more money from simply flogging tickets to anyone.
    To be fair we take a lot of what ceroc now do for granted

    5 min check in v 2hrs for Franco
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    There is no easy answer

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    To be fair we take a lot of what ceroc now do for granted

    I'll be absolutely honest...... I'm embarrassed to say I didn't even give 'Gender Balancing' a second thought this time

    OK I admit, I didn't do any classes and never ventured upstairs but thinking about it now, the COZ and the pub had pretty much even numbers the whole time, as far as I could see.

    And (most) men were able to sit out, socialise and enjoy watching the dancing quite happily, without fear of being harassed.

    I honestly don't think with 1500 people booking, anyone could really be expected to do much better
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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    OK I admit, I didn't do any classes
    Even if the gender balance was spot on, it does not necessarily mean that the classes will be gender balanced because it depends who decides to do the class

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Even if the gender balance was spot on, it does not necessarily mean that the classes will be gender balanced because it depends who decides to do the class
    Exactly. I knew the balance was good, as I got asked to dance loads, which I don't if there are too many women. Even the milongas were fairly well balanced and I was able to spend time chatting to a couple of guys which was great, and at one brief point there were even men over.

    However, the tango flava class must have had 60 women over, whilst the next one (can't remember what, but taught by Richard Beauvision) had precisely balanced numbers for a while. Marc and Rachel's first tango class had lots of extra women but was well managed and the Sunday one had a handful over at the start (but was much smaller generally due to people leaving early). So a huge variation.

    This greatly improved my experience of the weekend and I had a great time.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Given that so many women seem happy to ask other women to dance (far more willingly than men asking men to dance), I wonder if this gender imbalance is really such a problem anyway. I can see that being a problem in the workshop classes where all the women genuinely want to learn to follow, but less of a problem at the freestyles.

    Also: Surely no matter how much you gender balance the weekend, people are always going to have free choice about attending the classes? Or am I misunderstanding something here? If there's an imbalance of 60+ women at the tango class, surely that's a bigger indication that too many women vs men are interested in learning tango?

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    Given that so many women seem happy to ask other women to dance (far more willingly than men asking men to dance), I wonder if this gender imbalance is really such a problem anyway.
    Asking other women to dance is an option when the alternative is sitting down and not dancing at all. I can, and do sometimes lead, but my preference would be to follow.
    "If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so in a very smart hat.'' George Bernard Shaw

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    Given that so many women seem happy to ask other women to dance (far more willingly than men asking men to dance), I wonder if this gender imbalance is really such a problem anyway. I can see that being a problem in the workshop classes where all the women genuinely want to learn to follow, but less of a problem at the freestyles.
    I'm very happy to dance with women but I don't think it would be much of a draw at a weekender if I thought that would be happening a lot. Am I wrong to be thinking this? Even if the lady leader can lead on a par with the best men I'd miss the pzazz, the frisson that you get from dancing with a guy, even though A Dance is Indubitably Just a Dance. Probably frightfully unPC. Should I get my coat? Nah.


    Also: Surely no matter how much you gender balance the weekend, people are always going to have free choice about attending the classes? Or am I misunderstanding something here? If there's an imbalance of 60+ women at the tango class, surely that's a bigger indication that too many women vs men are interested in learning tango?
    You could address that by having bookable workshops or admittance only to leader/ follower pairs. Those big tango workshops are an absurd scrum anyway and the ladies soon duck out when they realise they are not going to be able learn anything useful, thus equalising the numbers.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    To be fair we take a lot of what ceroc now do for granted

    5 min check in v 2hrs for Franco
    Unlimted chilled water downstairs
    Well, we wouldn't be here whingeing if we weren't ungrateful beggars

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    There is no easy answer
    I do wonder if the gender-pricing strategy might work; AFAIK, it's not actually been tried.

    Yes, it'd make the "throwaway male tickets" cheaper, but one would hope that it'd provide an incentive to men to attend.

    On the other hand, my very very limited experience of events is that pricing is generally irrelevant to attendance. But it might be worth trying - if only as an experiment.

  12. #32
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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    Given that so many women seem happy to ask other women to dance (far more willingly than men asking men to dance),
    Hmm, I actually see far more men dancing together these days, than I do two women at weekenders.

    And 'tagging' is definitely on the increase (loved my tags this weekend )

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I do wonder if the gender-pricing strategy might work; AFAIK, it's not actually been tried.

    ~snip~

    But it might be worth trying - if only as an experiment.
    You're just after a cheap ticket Mr Bailey!
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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    You're just after a cheap ticket Mr Bailey!
    Well, yes - I assume you've never taken advantage of a "Ladies go free" offer then?

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I do wonder if the gender-pricing strategy might work; AFAIK, it's not actually been tried.
    Ceroc did have a gender-balance cashback at some Southport weekends (and maybe some others?).

    You had to turn up and get your wristbands at the same time as the person you were balancing with, and then could claim the cash back at that point.
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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I do wonder if the gender-pricing strategy might work; AFAIK, it's not actually been tried.
    I would hazard a guess and say that this may fall foul of the sex discrimination laws if done in a direct way.

    However I think that it already exists through the back door. It is very difficult for ladies to get SWAS tickets but the mens tickets are available right upto when bookings close.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I would hazard a guess and say that this may fall foul of the sex discrimination laws if done in a direct way.
    Maybe - but I'm not convinced on that one.

    Franco famously tried that excuse a few years back when defending his "100 women to 1 man" policy. If equality of numbers isn't illegal, why should different charging be?

    I guess if Ladies Nights are legal, then so should gender charging be.

    But, yes, that fear of legal action may be why no-one's done it yet.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I would hazard a guess and say that this may fall foul of the sex discrimination laws if done in a direct way.

    However I think that it already exists through the back door. It is very difficult for ladies to get SWAS tickets but the mens tickets are available right upto when bookings close.
    We've gender balanced one of our New Year's Eve events. And we've increased the price in December. Almost all of the women's tickets have sold for £15 each. There's still about half of the men's tickets left so a lot of the guys will be paying £17.50. We're not worried that we'll be left with men's tickets and an unbalanced event. We always sell out at this event.

    Effectively men will be paying £2.50 more than women. But that wasn't the intention.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    We've gender balanced one of our New Year's Eve events. And we've increased the price in December. Almost all of the women's tickets have sold for £15 each. There's still about half of the men's tickets left so a lot of the guys will be paying £17.50.
    Effectively men will be paying £2.50 more than women. But that wasn't the intention.
    Both women and men had the same opportunity to buy the tickets at £15 but the men decided not to take up on this.

    Originally Posted by David Bailey
    I do wonder if the gender-pricing strategy might work; AFAIK, it's not actually been tried.
    What I understand of DB's suggestion is that only the men will be given the opportunity to buy tickets at a lower level and it is this that may fall foul of the sex discrimination laws.

  19. #39
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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    What I understand of DB's suggestion is that only the men will be given the opportunity to buy tickets at a lower level and it is this that may fall foul of the sex discrimination laws.
    Actually, Andy's tale gives an obvious mechanism.

    Offer gender-balanced tickets. Initially, offer the tickets at a higher price, then reduce the price over time.

    This provides a de facto pricing mechanism which favours men.

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    Re: Serious Post ..Gender Balance whats gone wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Offer gender-balanced tickets. Initially, offer the tickets at a higher price, then reduce the price over time.
    I suspect that this may be counter productive in relation to all prebookings. People don't mind paying the lowest price available at the time they book but if they know the price may go down they may wait for that and in the meantime go elsewhere.

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