Any leaders that have learned to follow ?

[Moo]

Hi all,

I was just wondering if there were any leaders that had gone down the route of learning to follow here. I know a few have out there that I've seen.

If so, did it help your lead (or decided to follow only thereafter ), or did it hinder it in someway ?

I'm just wondering if it would be a good idea to do, to help me understand the lead even more, as well as follow.

Also, is it frowned upon in lessons for a man to follow, if there is a shortage of leads (as this happens a reasonable amount at some venues), and do you typically not rotate in the class and just learn with a fixed partner (as I guess some of the men may find it a bit strange dancing with another man, I don't care personally and would be happy to) ?

[David Bailey]

I was just wondering if there were any leaders that had gone down the route of learning to follow here. I know a few have out there that I've seen.

If so, did it help your lead (or decided to follow only thereafter ), or did it hinder it in someway ?

Learning to follow has defintely improved my understanding of the dance (AT). I assume that this has improved my leading, but I may be wrong - they're not quite the same thing.

I'm just wondering if it would be a good idea to do, to help me understand the lead even more, as well as follow.

My opinion - and it's just an opinion, I don't have much to back it up - is that learning a little bit of following will help, but learning a lot of following may not. I think you get most of the "see it from the other side" benefits, at least in dance terms, from a relatively small exposure.

But I reckon that if you want to learn to be a better leader, you need to work mainly on your leading.

(Yes, I know, it's Statement-Of-The-Bleedin'-Obvious time )

Also, is it frowned upon in lessons for a man to follow, if there is a shortage of leads (as this happens a reasonable amount at some venues), and do you typically not rotate in the class and just learn with a fixed partner (as I guess some of the men may find it a bit strange dancing with another man, I don't care personally and would be happy to) ?

I think there's still a bit of a taboo about it, yes - in many MJ classes at least.

Some (male) leaders come to MJ with no dance background at all, and they may be surprised / upset to suddenly see a man as their partner.

I'd check with the teacher, or stick to fixed partners.

[Steven666]

I rotated in a class at Camber once. The first dozen men were fine with it, then two on the trot refused to lead me. Then I went to leading it and the first follow I danced with said I had led it the best so far. Not bad seeing as I hadn't been shown it from a leads point of view. Guess I must have been subconciously paying attention to it all.

Having said that, I like to know both sides whether or I'm going to follow it or not. I suppose it helps the way you lead if you know what you need to do to give the follow an idea of what's going on.

Following does make you realise what a good lead is...

[/rambling]

[CheesyRobMan]

Don't have time for a long reply, but I learnt to follow a while ago and have not regretted it. Following opens your eyes to what a good (or bad) lead feels like, and helps you to lead more considerately. A lot of guys aren't comfortable dancing with other guys - especially in Northern Ireland! - so joining the class rotation may not be a good plan, and especially if there are ladies over anyway.

It also makes for a fun dance if you are dancing with a lady who can lead!

Will come back with a better reply when I have time.

[Tiger Pants]

I learnt to follow a little as a fixed partner with a female lead. I feel it has helped me enormously with the taxi class as I understand what the lead feels like now that I have followed. I have danced with a fair few male leads and must admit that at times I do prefer to follow but I have noticed that following more frequently makes me lazy as a lead.

I would never suggest that a male follows in a regular class but try it with a fixed partner a few times and see how you get on. Dancing as a male follow at freestyles does of course lead to the odd unexpected invitation to dance and that's probably when you learn a bit more.

[Andy McGregor]

I learnt to follow many years ago - I've even got some bronze medals I won as a follow at three out of the 4 major competitions - only came 4th at the Ceroc champs

It's easy to follow, once you get used to giving up control. The hardest bit is to change your 'natural' footwork so you step right on the 1. I find that I need to keep slipping in triples over 2 beats (skipping) to get back on the correct foot.

I think it's important that a teacher knows how to lead and follow. For regular dancers it's optional and can be fun. Ladies often learn how to lead because there's a shortage of men. For us guys, we usually learn to follow as a bit of fun. And that's my answer, try it and do more of it if you enjoy it - don't take it too seriously.

In terms of improving your dancing, I'd say there's plenty of things ahead of learning to follow in my list of things which will improve your dancing.

[Gerry]

It's easy to follow, once you get used to giving up control. The hardest bit is to change your 'natural' footwork so you step right on the 1. I find that I need to keep slipping in triples over 2 beats

I didn't know that you did WCS.

[Andy McGregor]

I didn't know that you did WCS.

I've done quite a few WCS workshops - but I kept breaking into smiles and got frowned at

[Sheepman]

I've even got some bronze medals I won as a follow at three out of the 4 major competitions - only came 4th at the Ceroc champs

Maybe your partner was still a novice for that one

I agree with Andy's comments, particularly regarding teachers. I don't think that learning to follow has affected my lead much, I hope I'd got that mostly sorted over the years before I tried following. It has affected my choice of moves though, as it makes you realise what doesn't feel appealing for a follower. So for example, gone are the single, double, and triple pretzels, which I use to love leading.

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Maybe your partner was still a novice for that one

My partner at the Ceroc champs was devilishly handsome - and our wives thought it was hilarious to hear people around them saying "those gay guys are good!"

[Moo]

Maybe your partner was still a novice for that one

I agree with Andy's comments, particularly regarding teachers. I don't think that learning to follow has affected my lead much, I hope I'd got that mostly sorted over the years before I tried following. It has affected my choice of moves though, as it makes you realise what doesn't feel appealing for a follower. So for example, gone are the single, double, and triple pretzels, which I use to love leading.

Greg

Thanks all for the replies so far, has given me some food for thought .

I guess these follow on questions should be in a different thread (happy to if wanted), but whilst they've been mentioned here...

I'd be interested to hear anything else that followers don't find appealing that would be learnt (all other things being equal, assuming its with a reasonable lead that typically you would enjoy dancing with).

Also, I know there are lots of things to work on constantly (posture is one I'm also focusing on atm), but what other elements do others thinks are the most important things that they have learnt that have improved their dancing ? How long is a piece of string I guess, but I'd be interested especially in bits that don't come from the usual lesson/freestyle format. I've done quite a few workshops over the time, but hard to get many here atm.

Interestingly I rarely do pretzels, nor drops (do followers love/hate/are indifferent with these?). I can remember asking a follower what she didn't like in MJ, and she said moves where she is behind her partner (like catapult), which I found interesting as well.

[David Bailey]

Also, I know there are lots of things to work on constantly (posture is one I'm also focusing on atm), but what other elements do others thinks are the most important things that they have learnt that have improved their dancing ?

Personally, if I had to pick one thing that improves a lead immeasurably, it's the ability to provide a decent pre-lead; that is, to start leading the next movement whilst dancing the current one, by using appropriate body alignments.

That's what makes the dance smooth; it also makes life much, much easier for followers I think, as each movement flows naturally on from the next, and followers are "prepped" for the next movement, so they don't have to think about what they "should" do.

I think that a lot of the difference between a good / experienced leader and a bad / inexperienced one is in the timing of the lead - a good leader will start leading a movement (more accurately, prepping that lead movement) maybe 0.5 seconds earlier than a bad one.

I've heard an analogy with chess - the more moves ahead you think and plan, the better - but I'm not sure I'd use that analogy, it seems a bit too intellectual an approach, whereas I think dancing should be more instinctive / improvised.

[ant]

Also, I know there are lots of things to work on constantly (posture is one I'm also focusing on atm), but what other elements do others thinks are the most important things that they have learnt that have improved their dancing ? How long is a piece of string I guess, but I'd be interested especially in bits that don't come from the usual lesson/freestyle format. I've done quite a few workshops over the time, but hard to get many here atm.

Based upon my experience the best things to do are:

1 Just take your time

2 Go to few freestyles/weekenders where a lot of experienced dancers go. Experience what it is like to dance with them and watch a few yourself. Then I think you will have a good idea in what direction you think you need to point yourself in.

3 Go to workshops that you think will help you

[jim]

I've been working on my posture for about the last two years and it's still way off .

[cederic]

I've been pondering learning to follow for ages. Partly I've decided I should maybe learn to lead first, partly there seem so few opportunities to learn. I've even asked a lady that was starting to learn to lead whether she'd like to practice on me and her reaction was impressive: Apparently men in Manchester aren't allowed to follow. A couple of weeks ago a teacher at a Manchester venue even stated very forcefully that "men never follow".

Amusingly bigoted, but not terribly helpful for the more open-minded dancer. Although given my ability to fall over when practicing spins during classes (twice now!) maybe learning to follow isn't a great idea anyway


Without knowing how long you've been dancing Moo, and what you're already good at, it's difficult to suggest things to learn. The two things keeping my busy right now:

Musicality, and using it to change the pace of the dancing. Less is more; stopping at the right time, slowing down or speeding up a simple move delights my partners far more than (most) complex moves. I've been focussing on this one for months and still have a ton to learn.

Telegraphing the lead - what David Bailey calls a pre-lead. I danced at a new venue a couple of weeks ago, grabbed the best dancers in the room and had some difficult dances with them because they didn't know what I was going to lead. One of them actually stated, "You give nothing away". My musicality wasn't bad, my technique in the moves was sufficient, my lead was gentle and clear; I was concentrating on doing things well at a new venue. But she just didn't know what was coming ahead. With a regular partner I want to surprise that's maybe a good thing, but when your follower is too busy concentrating on following to enjoy the dance I don't think that's a great outcome.

When a follower struggles to follow me when I know I'm leading the individual moves correctly, then starts doing aerials, drops and complex combination moves to a fast-paced tracks with another leader, it's a pretty clear indication of which partner in our dance was causing the problem..

[Prian]

As a teacher or taxi one must know how to lead and follow.

I learnt to follow though before taxis had been introduced to Ceroc. I was advised by a then teacher that it can "earn brownie points," with the ladies if the guys can follow or as it was more commonly phrased then "do the girls moves." She pointed out that if a lead tells a follow that they are not doing it right, that it can sound facetious. But if the lead can show the follow how to do it, it looks so much better. Though as I recall the words he and she were used more than lead and follow.

I don't know if it's the same thread but I do like spinning when my partner spins, at least 70+% of the time. I can just about manage a double spin in the right shoes. Just wondering how many other guys spin and what the ladies think of guys that spin

[David Bailey]

Apparently men in Manchester aren't allowed to follow. A couple of weeks ago a teacher at a Manchester venue even stated very forcefully that "men never follow".

Possibly this teacher is one to be avoided.

Telegraphing the lead - what David Bailey calls a pre-lead.

I think that's what others call it also

Thing is, whilst I know what you should be doing - building up the pre-lead progressively during the preceeding movement, so that the actual lead for the movement is simply a confirmation to the follower of what you've been indicating for a while already - I'm a bit more hazy about what to do in Modern Jive to achieve that.

I more-or-less know how to teach it in AT: you start moving your body to the next-move-lead position, as soon as the follower starts to transfer weight in the preceeding move. I think that's pretty much the same in MJ, but it's probably best to ask an MJ teacher* about how you should develop your pre-leading technique in MJ.

* Although maybe not the one in Manchester...

[Moo]

Thanks all, its more interesting than I anticipated the discussion. For what its worth, I've been dancing MJ for over 3 years, and AT for about 1, and I think my lead is generally clear (unless trying something new to understand it), but could be improved, as with everything.

The pre-lead concept, I hadn't thought much about previously. I think I automatically do this to a point, but I'm guessing not as significant as others by the sound of it. I think I'll be more aware of this next time I'm dancing.

I've recently been questioning the idea of what the lead is, which is possibly why I started this thread. I think I can lead well by trial and error (where you end up sticking with what works, or keep trying until it does), but not through proper understanding from the other side iyswim.

There's also an interesting follower who I've danced with quite a few times. She doesn't always follow what I've led, and other leads would probably think she's not a good follower. However, the connection is great, which means I'll feel like I'm constantly re-evaluating my lead and it leading to a mutation (a good one) of my inititial intention (shout if that doesn't make sense). The point here being, if I pre-lead significantly, and make it more obvious what I'm doing, then I would imagine that the dance would become more stagnant ? If my lead is perfectly accurate, and the follow is perfectly accurate also, then it feels like a formula, rather than a dance. I get this with some of the "better" dancers.

Some of my most stimulating dances, are when I don't know whats quite going to happen (but with a pure connection). Do some vary their lead, so if you pre-lead a lot normally, do sometimes you switch it off or reduce it iyswim given a different person ? (I know most of us adapt to an extent depending on partner).

Any of that make sense?

[CheesyRobMan]

Just wondering how many other guys spin and what the ladies think of guys that spin

I spin a lot, and wiggle too and have had ladies saying in mock annoyance that I'm showing them up by being too good at both...

[Andy McGregor]

I spin a lot, and wiggle too and have had ladies saying in mock annoyance that I'm showing them up by being too good at both...

Ladies are so kind. I'll be you're been told you're a great lover too