Its all in the lead

[Gus]

OK .. been offline for far too long during my all too brief tour of Haggis land. Got to first say that both FilthyCute and Fran proved that Scottish hospitality is alive and well ... many thanks for putting me up.

Also ... and getting onto the point of the thread was extremely impressed by the standard of the female dancers ... I won't mention names for fear of offending the great dancers who's names I've forgotten but their dancefloor ettiquete, style and moves were a joy to behold ... a credit to the great bunch of teachers you have there.

Though I didn't get the chance to wacth the men's styles as much as I would have liked to (was keen to spot any new moves to 'adopt') one thing I did notice was that some guys seem to have confused the need to lead clearly with the need to pull shoulders out of sockets!

I must stress, this was only in two incidents I saw this BUT there should never be a time for the guy to have to tug at his partner. If a light lead doesn't prompt the lady where she should go then ... TOUGH!! Either do another move or repeat the move again, more slowly and try to explain what you are trying to do.

This problem becomes more evident in dancers who try to become more 'dynamic' and trying to get the ladies to move more quickly. It comes down to giving the lady the opportunity to move cleanly, allow her to be balanced throughout the move and to signal what you're expecting her to do.

This is a common problem across the Uk ... and I've seen some horrendous cases of guys yanking lady's around ... its simply not acceptable. Fair comment?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
some guys seem to have confused the need to lead clearly with the need to pull shoulders out of sockets!
.....
This is a common problem across the UK ... and I've seen some horrendous cases of guys yanking lady's around ... its simply not acceptable.

Very fair comment. It seems to be a fairly typical way of dancing wherever I've been.

The biggest problem is that most men think they are leading ok, and don't need to learn how to do it better. Modern Jive has created this image that you don't need to learn any technique in order to dance - so why should they start now?

Even if they wanted to, I'm not sure where they can learn. Leading and following is very difficult to teach unless the teacher can dance with each individual. Most jive classes are too far too big to do this. (And unfortunately teachers are not exempt from leading like this!) Perhaps small workshops are the best way - but how do you attract the worst offenders to the workshops.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Perhaps small workshops are the best way - but how do you attract the worst offenders to the workshops.

David

Small workshops are the ONLY way for things like that. I was chatting to Chris V last weekend and he was lamenting the old days in Ceroc (8years or so) when there used to be a greater focus on some of eth 'finer' points. After half an hour I managed to pick up enough feedback items (like hand hold, clear leads, how to trun/spin) to put together the requirements for a new workshop (should be a 1-2 hour mini-session). Now just got to find the time to construct the workshop and work out how best to convey the message.

Re attracting the worst performers ... possibly a bit like telling someone who's got BO ... "Don't take it personally but I think you'd benefit from THIS .... " probably cause about as much offence as well as the worst leaders are that dreaded sub-set of dancers who after 12 to 24 months think they now know it all ... the sad misguided fools...

[John S]

On the subject of men being too vigorous with their leads (and as far as I know I wasn't at any of the venues Gus was at, so I'm not being defensive) I think it was Franck who once did a class where he got the couples to dance without their hands actually touching at all, to indicate how little contact is really needed if there is the proper harmony and understanding.

Meanwhile, I'm off to build up my strength so I can join in with the rest of the arm-wrenching, muscle-bound, testosterone-fuelled Dancing Jocks.

[Gus]

Originally posted by John S

Meanwhile, I'm off to build up my strength so I can join in with the rest of the arm-wrenching, muscle-bound, testosterone-fuelled Dancing Jocks.

If I gave the impression I was making a genric critisism of Jock Dancers in generla I apologise ... I WASN'T! It was just a casual observation. What I did observe was a higher degree of dance floor ettiquette than I'm used to. There are a number of venues in the North West where a background in martial arts is usefull to defend oneself from incoming arms, legs and dance partners. I'm plesaed to say there was very little need for such defensive strategies with the Jocks.

[Franck]

Originally posted by John S
I think it was Franck who once did a class where he got the couples to dance without their hands actually touching at all, to indicate how little contact is really needed if there is the proper harmony and understanding.

Yes, this is a very useful exercise for anyone who's lead is a bit 'strong' (and this includes women, as well as men ).
I tend to call it 'air dancing' (as in 'air guitar'). The idea is to dance with your partner, but keeping an inch or 2 of distance between your hands.
This forces the men to understand where the lead should come from, and helps the ladies develop self-sufficiency in their movements/ travelling.
It is not easy to do, but I recommend all men give it a go, with practise it can be extremelly rewarding and a well deserved rest on those arms / shoulders!

We also (should more often?) teach about the 'right tension' in the arms, one of the exercises is to step in and out holding both hands, and letting all the tension in the arms fall away from the shoulders, away from the arms and elbows and focus it all in the finger tips!

Anyway, if you want to know more, book yourself into a workshop (Beginners / Intermediate or Style, they all cover some of these points to some degree).

Franck.

[Amanda]

Originally posted by John S
Meanwhile, I'm off to build up my strength so I can join in with the rest of the arm-wrenching, muscle-bound, testosterone-fuelled Dancing Jocks.

mmmmmmmmmm

Amanda

[Gus]

Originally posted by Amanda

mmmmmmmmmm

Amanda

So Amanda ... do you like it a little rough occaisionaly ... or is that just a malicious rumour???

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
Yes, this is a very useful exercise for anyone who's lead is a bit 'strong' (and this includes women, as well as men ).
Franck.

what can i say.......i was a BAD gurl last night :sorry

Sorry Franck and Sherwin.i seemd to take it out on you 2 the most.

have firmly scolded myself and sharply slapped my wrist.
will now proceed with my lines.....

I WILL NOT LEAD WHEN I AM DANCING AS A WOMAN.
I WILL NOT LEAD WHEN I AM DANCING AS A WOMAN.....


filthycute x x

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by filthycute


what can i say.......i was a BAD gurl last night :sorry

Sorry Franck and Sherwin.i seemd to take it out on you 2 the most.

have firmly scolded myself and sharply slapped my wrist.
will now proceed with my lines.....

I WILL NOT LEAD WHEN I AM DANCING AS A WOMAN.
I WILL NOT LEAD WHEN I AM DANCING AS A WOMAN.....


filthycute x x

And what about the South American guy that you danced with? Oh! That pour little soul

Did you insinuate that your penance was writing 2 lines of I WILL NOT .... ; and "slapping your wrist"?
Franck and i were more on the lines of "slash her wrists"

Just kidding, enjoyed the dances .....even if at times, i did not know what i was doing . With a little bit of practice i'll get there.

Sherwin É.. with a new avatar

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

amanda- you have not responded to Gus's question: do you like it rough?

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
amanda- you have not responded to Gus's question: do you like it rough?

Well Basil - I do have a soft spot for cute, hairy, rust-coloured beasties so you never know your luck. And as for Gus. Well, he'll just have to wait until the Scottish Champs to find out....

Amanda