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Thread: Rough Leading

  1. #61
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I made that joke, waaay earlier. Anyone tempted to thank or rep DS should be aware that he's a steenking thieef.
    aha, it was ME first and you time travelled back to usurp me. Is that the lengths you are prepared to go to for a cheap joke? sad. very sad.

  2. #62
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    aha, it was ME first and you time travelled back to usurp me. Is that the lengths you are prepared to go to for a cheap joke?
    Well, yeah.

  3. #63
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo
    Perhaps you westies should add that to your signature and be done with it.

    After all it saves rational consideration of the arguments.
    Eh?????
    Eh?????
    JiveCat covered the second part with far greater clarity than I would here:-
    http://forum.cerocscotland.com/showp...6&postcount=23


    I was struck by how many westies had used this technique (over this thread and the 'Is it me' thread).

    While I don't consider any of them had sufficient merit, in this example it was so clearly uncalled for.


    It was a matter of some annoyance to me, but I shouldn't have generalised.

    Not all westies who contributed to these threads did and the observation would have, in any case, been better not made.

  4. #64
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I think the concept of 'authority' is important here.Frodo has dismissed points related to WCS made by people

    who do have a known pedigree in WCS. I am not saying this makes their points unarguable but it gives them, in my eyes, an authority on the

    subject under discussion that Frodo (of unknown WCS pedigree) lacks.
    I see it as very much the other way around.

    Just to make clear first that I consider said westies to be both experienced and very high quality dancers and I (and probably many others), have much to learn from them.


    I'm not dismissing the technical points they've made.

    However they have taken a proposition and dismissed it, to a significant extent by assertions and 'you know nothing' type arguments.


    I'm happy to be corrected with a reasoned dismissal that addressed the arguments.

    For one thing I would have learnt something worthwhile.



    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Frodo claims that certain elements of WCS are less central to the definition of the dance than others and gives (not

    altogether satisfactory to my thinking) justification for his views.

    How often is it remarked that only as we progress in our dancing are our eyes opened and we realise just how little we actually know and

    how much more there is to learn
    Absolutely.

    I'll check again the other thread at some point, in case you said what you found unsatisfactory.


    Just to point out the claim or proposition (depending on how you term it) was about WCS relative to Modern Jive, not purely about WCS.

  5. #65
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I'm not dismissing the technical points they've made.

    However they have taken a proposition and dismissed it, to a significant extent by assertions and 'you know nothing' type arguments.
    To be fair and give the other side of the story, I have made considerable efforts to explain our position and you were the one who dismissed my arguments.

    Like it or not, when you keep ploughing ahead against an avalanche of advice from different people, who have a lot of known experience with WCS, somebody is going to start asking questions about how much you know eventually.

    I'm happy to be corrected with a reasoned dismissal that addressed the arguments.

    For one thing I would have learnt something worthwhile.
    Then please re-read the thread. There are plenty of reasoned arguments in there. They're just opposed to your point of view.

  6. #66
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Like it or not, when you keep ploughing ahead against an avalanche of advice from different people, who have a lot of known experience with WCS, somebody is going to start asking questions about how much you know eventually.
    It's an interesting question as to how much credibility to give to an argument.

    In a standard internet forum, referring to one's personal experience is a poor argument, because usually there's no easy way to verify such experience - although even then, credibility does come with time, if you post with enough solid authority on particular issues.

    And I think this place is not just a standard internet forum, in that a lot of us have a lot of actual real life face-to-face (and body-to-body ) contact with each other, so we know a bit more about each other's specialities.

    So yes, it's reasonable to assume that if - for example - NZM says something about WCS, both his known experience and the other contributions he's made, provide his arguments with some added credibility. That doesn't mean he should be allowed to get away with talking rubbish, but it does mean we assume that he's at least thought about the topic.

    If I say something about AT, it may well be rubbish / wrong, but I'll hopefully have thought a bit about the topic beforehand. As the saying goes, I may be wrong, but I'm not just guessing.

    So whilst it's perfectly fine to treat this forum as a pure-internet medium, with anonymous identities, if you do that and disagree with someone who has some credibility through identity, you need to make stronger and more well-founded arguments to make your case. That's just the way it is.

    Blimey, this started out as a short post...

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    your post reminds me of the sort of leaders who half way through a dance shout things like “I’m gonna do a half-roger-dingly-dong with a twisted three quarter man-spin, followed by an ironing board half head drop…..brace yourself, Love!”.
    And there was me thinking you'd forgotten who I was x

  8. #68
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    And there was me thinking you'd forgotten who I was x
    *off topic, sorry*

    Weren't you supposed to be at S'Funk on Friday? I was looking forward to a portion of your dingly dong, but you blew me out again! A girl could get a complex, you know!

  9. #69
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    *off topic, sorry*

    Weren't you supposed to be at S'Funk on Friday? I was looking forward to a portion of your dingly dong, but you blew me out again! A girl could get a complex, you know!
    Ooh err missus, sorry I had my youngest overnight, I was really looking forward to it as well, sharing portions and the music

    Ijig Forum is on Sunday night, well worth a visit, love the pics of you and Gav

  10. #70
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Frodo

    For a quality follower it is NEVER about the moves. That statement really makes me wonder where you are on your dance journey.

    My pet hate is when I am leading something, the follower stops dead and says "Oh I ver been taught that move". A good follower will just keep moving with the momentum they have been given.

    A bad leader will not set his follower up correctly, they will be in the wrong position to start the move, in Lory's comments that will probably mean their weight is in the wrong place which will result in a jerky horrible lead.
    I like what you wrote Gerry, However i think part of the issue is thatCeroc as such do not teach people to lead and follow, but they teach them moves/patterns. Ceroc is a social acitivity and the success of Ceroc is that it is easy to learn which is why you get 200 on some Ceroc nights because it is easy and then you'll only get 30-40 people attending a WCS or other dance night because it`s not easy! so it`s not really surprising that certain followers who started out in MJ would approach it as 'i don't know that move'

    In the Ceroc teacher training the word Frame is never used,described or mentioned for i guess the simple reason that as soon as you start going down the teaching of technique path during normal classes then people generally switch off...It`s horses for courses.....When people no longer get stimulated or feel like they want to get a better understanding of how to dance then inevitably they go to as you mention the people who can help you and get private lessons or you go to a weekender or another dance style! One last thing, asking for feedback is always a good thing, It's a hard thing to do for people as they are risking getting negative feedback but personally every time i've asked and i have asked tonnes of times for feedback i usually find a greater understanding of my dance in the harsh words and honest opinions i have received as opposed to the people who say only nice things! be brave people!

  11. #71
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    Re: Rough Leading

    I think at a beginner/intermediate level moves are extremely important to a leader, and it's inevitable that the follower will hear the moves being taught to the leader and learn to follow the move, rather than follow the leader.

    I wouldn't put all the responsibility on the teachers; to an extent it's beholden on the more experienced leaders to help the followers learn to follow rather than to follow moves or sequences. In classes that's easily achieved by making anticipation obvious, in freestyles that's more easily achieved through clear leads with sufficient variation that a follower can't easily guess what's coming next.

    Plus something like a First Move/Basic, or a duck when the lead pushes down on the shoulder, or a lady comb just aren't necessarily intuitive. However, an earlier comment summed it up best for me:
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Moves are a useful learning mechanism, but what I think you should be learning is the movement. But at some point - and this is probably the most important point of differentiation between a beginner and an advanced dancer - you stop thinking of the specific moves. What I mean by a movement is probably much the same as what Rocky's talking about when he says each beat.
    At Brighton one of the big things I got out of the weekend was the realisation that the really great leaders often don't lead a move. They move to the music, and the follower moves with them. (There are exceptions: at one point I spotted a couple competitively freestyling a routine that was taught at Breeze).




    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I like what you wrote Gerry, However i think part of the issue is thatCeroc as such do not teach people to lead and follow, but they teach them moves/patterns. Ceroc is a social acitivity and the success of Ceroc is that it is easy to learn which is why you get 200 on some Ceroc nights because it is easy and then you'll only get 30-40 people attending a WCS or other dance night because it`s not easy! so it`s not really surprising that certain followers who started out in MJ would approach it as 'i don't know that move'

    In the Ceroc teacher training the word Frame is never used,described or mentioned ...
    Ceroc classes generally don't seem to cater for the advanced dancers, but I certainly wouldn't use a blanket statement - I attend Ceroc classes at which frame is definitely taught, along with concepts such as dancing in a slot (which is a whole other conversation). I also attend an independent venue with 120 regular attendees many of whom participate in the 'advanced' class, so the relative ease of the class can't be the only factor.

    Back on topic, rough leading is awfully disrespectful to the follower (and heavy following - especially combined with anticipation - is at times painful to the lead) and I'd hope any follower would give instant feedback. In Southport one lady did tell me I'd hurt her so I apologised, found out why and made sure I didn't lead anything similar to her.

    It's probably fair to suggest that most leaders don't want to hurt their followers, so let them know!

  12. #72
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Then please re-read the thread. There are plenty of reasoned arguments in there. They're just opposed to your point of view.
    Perhaps unlike yourself ? I did so before posting.

    The are plenty of arguments, which depending on the question are reasoned.

    But they're primarily scattergun arguments which are not specific enough to address the question at hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    It's an interesting question as to how much credibility to give to an argument.

    ...

    So whilst it's perfectly fine to treat this forum as a pure-internet medium, with anonymous identities, if you do that and disagree with someone who has some credibility through identity, you need to make stronger and more well-founded arguments to make your case. That's just the way it is.
    Sounds reasonable.


    I wonder if having 'experts' can actually be detrimental, because of their ability to have others accept insufficiently specific information.

    Experts may be parroting what they've heard and/or may be excessively influenced by groupthink within their restricted environment.

    Whereas 'non experts' may think it through from first principles - are thinking about it.
    Last edited by frodo; 26th-October-2010 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Corrected intended meaning.

  13. #73
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I wonder if having 'experts' is actually detrimental, because of their ability to have others accept insufficiently specific information.
    Well, no. Because they're experts.

    To take your argument to an extreme, any possession of experience or actual information would be detrimental to a debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Experts may be parroting what they've heard and/or may be excessively influenced by groupthink within their restricted environment.

    Whereas 'non experts' may think it through from first principles - are thinking about it.
    Well, yes, if you want to take every single debate from first principles. Seems a bit like an unacceptable overhead to me...

  14. #74
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, no. Because they're experts.

    To take your argument to an extreme, any possession of experience or actual information would be detrimental to a debate.
    My mistake. I've corrected the original terms to 'can be'.

    Well, yes, if you want to take every single debate from first principles. Seems a bit like an unacceptable overhead to me...
    Ditto. There is a balance.

    The balance can be too far either way.

  15. #75
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Perhaps unlike yourself ? I did so before posting.

    The are plenty of arguments, which depending on the question are reasoned.

    But they're primarily scattergun arguments which are not specific enough to address the question at hand.
    Then I don't think anyone but you understands your question.


    I wonder if having 'experts' can actually be detrimental, because of their ability to have others accept insufficiently specific information.

    Experts may be parroting what they've heard and/or may be excessively influenced by groupthink within their restricted environment.

    Whereas 'non experts' may think it through from first principles - are thinking about it.
    If there is one thing I don't think I can be accused of in this forum, it's parroting without explanation.

    As to whether having "experts" is detrimental to debate, I think it depends more upon the personality of the experts in question than their knowledge. There have certainly been times where we've had experts simply assert their point of view as the correct one and then essentially bully everyone who doesn't agree with them. On the other hand, if we didn't have "experts" who were willing to put time and thought into their responses then the answer to any questions would essentially be the blind leading the blind.

    If you consider us supposed "experts" to not be thinking things through ourselves and being detrimental to debate then you always have the option to liberally use the ignore button. That way you'll be free of our rigid groupthink and can tell us all about your new discoveries and ideas without us pointing out inconvenient holes in your thinking.

  16. #76
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    As to whether having "experts" is detrimental to debate, I think it depends more upon the personality of the experts in question than their knowledge. There have certainly been times where we've had experts simply assert their point of view as the correct one and then essentially bully everyone who doesn't agree with them. On the other hand, if we didn't have "experts" who were willing to put time and thought into their responses then the answer to any questions would essentially be the blind leading the blind.
    A nicely put balanced explanation IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ... and can tell us all about your new discoveries and ideas without us pointing out inconvenient holes in your thinking.
    Whats would be point of that.


    As touched on before pointing out holes should be good for everyone who is attempting to understand the subject matter.

    It would be nice though, if those pointing out holes would be open to accepting when they weren't in fact holes.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post

    It would be nice though, if those pointing out holes would be open to accepting when they weren't in fact holes.
    This works both ways

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Most commonly because they're experienced enough to know all the moves.
    Nooooo!!!!!

    A follower having knowledge of "moves" can be bad as it can lead to pre-empting/back-leading. A follower who has knowledge of "following" is good. There's a diference!

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    An experienced follow knows to expect the unexpected..


    That summed it up nicely!

  20. #80
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    This works both ways
    It does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    A follower having knowledge of "moves" can be bad as it can lead to pre-empting/back-leading. A follower who has knowledge of "following" is good. There's a diference!
    Completely. Unfortunately an experienced follower can be either.

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