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Thread: Rough Leading

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    “I’m gonna do a half-roger-dingly-dong with a twisted three quarter man-spin, followed by an ironing board half head drop…..brace yourself, Love!”.
    Usually, with my defective hearing, more like "I’m gonna do a h***-*****-dingWWWWW ZZZZZZZZ three qu#########n, **********board $$$$$$...DROP…..brace yourself, Love!"

    I'm sure most followers are familiar with the twisted half rogering suggestion, though.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    It would be nice to get back to Gerry's original idea of finding out how people seek and respond to criticism, and how to push their dancing on.
    Oh, OK then.

    Personally, I actively seek criticism (or "feedback") from several sources:
    - Myself (from videoing myself dancing with a partner, reviewing these videos, and taking notes / discussing it with my partner)
    - My partner, during and after 1-2-1 practice sessions
    - Other people, whose opinions I respect, during group practice sessions or via video (uploading content to Facebook)
    - Private lesson teachers (that's pretty much the entire rationale for taking private classes, in my view)

    That seems like more than enough for me, to be honest. And that approach seems to be helping me to move my dancing on also.

    What I don't do is seek feedback on the dance floor, especially from someone I don't know. And should I receive such feedback, then I usually don't pay much attention to it.

    The dance floor is for dancing on, not for learning on.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    I'm sure most followers are familiar with the twisted half rogering suggestion, though.
    Tell me about it! Half the time I'm sure it's only my 20 denier tights stopping me from getting pregnant during some freestyle dances.

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  6. #44
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Ant, your post reminds me of the sort of leaders who half way through a dance shout things like “I’m gonna do a half-roger-dingly-dong with a twisted three quarter man-spin, followed by an ironing board half head drop…..brace yourself, Love!”..
    I am surprised that is the conclusion you have come to. Nothing could be further from the truth so obviously you have no conception of what I was trying to say.
    Might as well be speaking in Chinese…I have no idea what moves are called, I just follow. It almost sounds as if you’re suggesting that a follower should know all the moves so she can anticipate what’s coming next, which is absolutely the wrong way to go about following in freestyle. The clues in the name…you lead, we follow. If you can’t lead it safely and precisely, don’t do it in a freestyle.
    Like I said it depends on the your philosophy. You appear to want to control all the moves your follower makes, so be my guest, I would rather allow my follower to dance what is inside her.


    Simply put, a great leader can make a total novice follower look good, just by leading well. Followers don’t need to know moves to dance, they just need to be lead well
    I agree.

    But a follower needs to have technique. at the very least balance. You can be the greatest leader in the world but if your follower cannot stay on her feet it ain't gonna work.

    As regards leading we seem to have different ideas of what that is. You appear to think that is a control mechanism, I think it is allowing the follower to do what is inside her and reacting accordingly.
    Last edited by ant; 25th-October-2010 at 01:47 PM.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    obviously you have no conception of what I was trying to say.


    From a post a wrote on a different thread yesterday...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    My experience of leads who get it wrong, but think they are fantastic dancers, in every case, is that they won't be criticised. They see it more as a failing on the followers part if a follower dares to criticise them.
    I rest my case.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Aw Gaud... don't ya just hate that move
    I suspect any move with ironing in the title is not going to go down well with the followers. I find I get much better reactions with

    "I’m gonna do a half-roger-dingly-dong with a twisted three quarter man-spin, followed by an non-stop shoe shop buying spree …..brace yourself, Love!”.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    so obviously you have no conception of what I was trying to say.
    Clearly, but as usual, what you're trying to say and what you actually say, very rarely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post

    I rest my case.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    ..Simply put, a great leader can make a total novice follower look good, just by leading well. Followers don’t need to know moves to dance, they just need to be lead well.
    We run a complete beginners introduction before our beginners classes at Newbury. After we've gone over the main principles, if we have a group of ladies, myself and the taxi dancers will just lead them into a series of basic moves as I call them out. Pretty much in 90% of cases the ladies follow perfectly because they are just following what's lead with no knowledge of what the move actually is.

    Then of course what happens is that they do the beginner's class 'learn' the moves and their following goes to pot! It really is quite an art form for followers to be able to switch this control mechanism off...

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I rest my case.
    To be fair to Ant, he strikes me as a person who has worked hard on his dancing and takes it very seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ant
    But a follower needs to have technique. at the very least balance. You can be the greatest leader in the world but if your follower cannot stay on her feet it ain't gonna work.
    I absolutely wouldn't argue with that, but if there were a lot of followers who couldn't stay on their feet then a leader should start hearing a few alarm bells, maybe?

    As regards leading we seem to have different ideas of what that is. You appear to think that is a control mechanism, I think it is allowing the follower to do what is inside her and reacting accordingly.
    I think there's a big difference between rough leading (using force)and clear leading (which doesn't).

    Also, a big difference between clear leading and controlling. Personally, I have a lot of difficulty with leaders who just allow me to do what is inside of me. Often, there's a bl**dy embarrassing hiatus as I contemplate the vast empty spaces of my inner dance repertoire. So, don't abnegate your responsibilities, lads. Keep on leading. Clearly. Gently. Decisively. I'll do my best to try to fit in something interesting without disturbing you.

    Of course if I should show a suggestion of self-will whilst dancing, you could pay some attention to it. But don't just stop leading and wait for something to happen, because 9 out of 10 it won't. Unless you count brassing your follower off as a good result.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Might as well be speaking in Chinese…I have no idea what moves are called, I just follow. It almost sounds as if you’re suggesting that a follower should know all the moves so she can anticipate what’s coming next, which is absolutely the wrong way to go about following in freestyle. The clues in the name…you lead, we follow. If you can’t lead it safely and precisely, don’t do it in a freestyle.
    Like I said it depends on the your philosophy. You appear to want to control all the moves your follower makes, so be my guest, I would rather allow my follower to dance what is inside her.
    Why would a follower "want to control all the moves [her] follower makes"? When she's talking from a followers' perspective? Am I alone in finding this statement a touch confusing?

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Having said that, I do sort of agree with Ant in some respect. Followers have to learn technique but also there are certain movements in MJ that work better when the follower has some knowledge of what the move looks and feels like - hook turns, overturns, momentum moves etc. etc. Yes, you can lead them on good followers but for many intermediate followers knowing the shape does help to build their following ability..

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Aw Gaud... don't ya just hate that move
    What? Its my favourite. I had to tone down the "dingly dongly" due to complaints, but it still remains a crowd pleaser.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Why would a follower "want to control all the moves [her] follower makes"? When she's talking from a followers' perspective? Am I alone in finding this statement a touch confusing?
    i'm not entirely sure what Ant is on about either, DT seems to be saying she does not want to control anything, she wants to be lead - this does not imply that she never wants space to bring her own ideas to the dance, it only implies she does not expect to finish or anticipate moves without being lead.

    So ant is confusing on many levels. Kind of like doing a rubiks cube in a lift.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Having said that, I do sort of agree with Ant in some respect. Followers have to learn technique but also there are certain movements in MJ that work better when the follower has some knowledge of what the move looks and feels like - hook turns, overturns, momentum moves etc. etc. Yes, you can lead them on good followers but for many intermediate followers knowing the shape does help to build their following ability..
    Is this what Ant was referring to in terms of knowing moves and muscle memory?

    I frequently get asked 'show me another move' by leads in the freestyle time on class nights. I keep explaining that I don't know many moves... that I don't think in terms of moves but 'movement', where they are leading me from moment to moment.

    But knowing the 'shape' of some moves does help, as its in your muscle memory, rather than a conscious thought of 'oh I know this move'.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    ....If a follower learns only though MJ lessons and workshops then I think in order to establish these two ingredients that I think make her a good follower in this context she will need to learn all or most of the moves.....l.
    How can you, yes you, say this Ant
    You are a fantastic lead and most of your dancing is based around this, in fact I am not sure you actually lead the conventional moves, and if you do, I completely ignore them and rely on your lead to guide me !


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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    We run a complete beginners introduction before our beginners classes at Newbury. After we've gone over the main principles, if we have a group of ladies, myself and the taxi dancers will just lead them into a series of basic moves as I call them out. Pretty much in 90% of cases the ladies follow perfectly because they are just following what's lead with no knowledge of what the move actually is.

    Then of course what happens is that they do the beginner's class 'learn' the moves and their following goes to pot! It really is quite an art form for followers to be able to switch this control mechanism off...
    I found this the hardest thing about learning to dance.
    Having done lots of celidh dancing before (where everybody needs to know what they're doing for it to work well) and often having to tell other dancers what to do - suddenly having to turn off your control and being (pretty much) under someone elses control is a VERY difficult thing to do.

    I'm getting better but if I'm reading occasional comments right, not something I've completely perfected yet

    Unfortunately not all followers understand this and, surprisingly, not all leaders seem to understand that they're supposed to be in control either.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    What? Its my favourite. I had to tone down the "dingly dongly" due to complaints, but it still remains a crowd pleaser.
    I made that joke, waaay earlier. Anyone tempted to thank or rep DS should be aware that he's a steenking thieef.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I made that joke, waaay earlier. Anyone tempted to thank or rep DS should be aware that he's a steenking thieef.
    1. DS's reply was better than yours
    2. Blatant rep tartery like that will get you nowhere.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Really, really NOT!

    Do you really think an experienced follow is recognising each 'move' and is following because she's learnt or knows those moves?

    An experienced follow knows to expect the unexpected.. they will know to simply follow what the lead's leading!

    Often, she'll be completely suprised at the outcome and this is one of the thrills/joys of dancing with a good lead!




    Oh you are so right Lory - I remember once (way before most people twigged to my left hand dominance and right hand weakness) when Franck decided to throw in a Ladies left hand led move into an ordinary right hand led dance... I hadn't a clue what he had done, but i just knew that it felt wonderful... It was only when Franck deigned to repeat the move that my vague puzzlement turned into a brilliant smile as I figured out what he had done..

    If I had tried to predict what he was going to do, I would have missed out some wonderful dances with him, and with the rest of the leads that put up with me


    Actually that brings me to a point about strong leads etc (I know getting a thread back on topic is Boring ). I love being led gently, but unless you know me, and how to hold my right hand I "escape" a bit more often that other follows (particularly during spins). So either a slightly altered or slightly stronger lead is essential. However, if I do escape from a move (deliberately or not) I can sometimes turn this into a bit of playing, so I think it can also be fun to say that if the lead allows the opportunity, then they might benefit from the unexpected too.

    Cheers WT
    Last edited by whitetiger1518; 25th-October-2010 at 03:49 PM.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    1. DS's reply was better than yours
    But I got off quicker.

    Err...

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