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Thread: Rough Leading

  1. #21
    Registered User gamebird's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    If you see me at one of the dance events please introduce yourself as it will be interesting to see who you are on and off the dance floor
    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    A very loaded suggestion. I know there's a school of thought that says we should all get to meet each other but this is an internet forum so I think everyone's got the right to be a disembodied intellect in cyberspace if they so desire. Lots of other forums manage perfectly well with members all over the world who could never meet so I don't see why we can't do the same. Dark mutterings about meeting up mean that nobody's putting over their ideas by force of reason and argument alone and makes the forum seem a bit parochial.
    It does seem a very loaded question - and I'm not sure entirely of the spirit in which it's said but that's so often the problem with the written word.
    I'm sure this has been discussed here before and on forums up and down the country, without tone of voice and facial expression it's very hard to know exactly what level the discussion is at. So maybe meeting in person is a good idea - it also means that physical demonstrations can be given to illustrate points.


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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post

    Still not sure if frodo is on this forum just to wind us up
    Same here. But I think there is just enough in his statement

    Originally posted by Frodo
    Most commonly because they're experienced enough to know all the moves.
    for some validity (accident or design, who knows?)

    I am not sure what makes a good follower a good follower but I think two of the ingredients in this context are

    1 Technique or muscle memory built into their body
    2 Confidence

    If a follower learns only though MJ lessons and workshops then I think in order to establish these two ingredients that I think make her a good follower in this context she will need to learn all or most of the moves.

    I would say the same applies for leaders as well.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by gamebird View Post
    It does seem a very loaded question - and I'm not sure entirely of the spirit in which it's said but that's so often the problem with the written word.
    ......... So maybe meeting in person is a good idea - it also means that physical demonstrations can be given to illustrate points.

    You're just too nice, Gamebird!

    I think the idea is that Gerry's insinuating that Frodo's a rubbish dancer so meeting up personally would give the chance to lock horns, circle each other like rutting stags and settle the matter for once and all.

    Also, by casting unproveable doubt on Frodo's dancing ability he is absolved from the need to answer Frodo's arguments by force of written reason alone. It's a Classic Forum Technique - I've seen it used on other dance forums also - and is of course pretty much unanswerable without (at the very least) video evidence, or maybe a handwritten personal reference from Lily Barker. That's why it's a very effective undermining technique but also, IMO, below the belt. The last refuge of anyone losing in a discussion is to get personal so although Gerry's got a lot of good points to make, overall it weakens his argument.

    Having said that, I've sometimes been surprised by someone sounding very authoritative on a forum turning out to be a mediocre dancer. But we all need to make allowances and adjustments for that when reading posts, challenging people to duels is just soooo 18th Century.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    I think the idea is that Gerry's insinuating that Frodo's a rubbish dancer so meeting up personally would give the chance to lock horns, circle each other like rutting stags and settle the matter for once and all.

    Also, by casting unproveable doubt on Frodo's dancing ability he is absolved from the need to answer Frodo's arguments by force of written reason alone. It's a Classic Forum Technique - I've seen it used on other dance forums also - and is of course pretty much unanswerable without (at the very least) video evidence, or maybe a handwritten personal reference from Lily Barker. That's why it's a very effective undermining technique but also, IMO, below the belt.
    I think you're wrong jivecat. There are people who might place value on someone's posts based on their dance pedigree (however that might be assessed) but Gerry isn't one of them.

    I think the concept of 'authority' is important here. Frodo has dismissed points related to WCS made by people who do have a known pedigree in WCS. I am not saying this makes their points unarguable but it gives them, in my eyes, an authority on the subject under discussion that Frodo (of unknown WCS pedigree) lacks. Frodo claims that certain elements of WCS are less central to the definition of the dance than others and gives (not altogether satisfactory to my thinking) justification for his views. How often is it remarked that only as we progress in our dancing are our eyes opened and we realise just how little we actually know and how much more there is to learn?

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I am not sure what makes a good follower a good follower but I think two of the ingredients in this context are

    1 Technique or muscle memory built into their body
    2 Confidence

    If a follower learns only though MJ lessons and workshops then I think in order to establish these two ingredients that I think make her a good follower in this context she will need to learn all or most of the moves.

    I would say the same applies for leaders as well.
    With all due respect, what a load of cr4p.

    Unless I'm misunderstanding, you're saying that in order to have confidence and good technique as a leader or follower in MJ, you need to learn all of the moves?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    My question is, if you were told that you may have a problem concerning your dancing, what would you do.
    It would depend almost totally on the context - where I was being told, when I was being told, how I was being told, and who was doing the telling.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    You're just too nice, Gamebird!

    I think the idea is that Gerry's insinuating that Frodo's a rubbish dancer so meeting up personally would give the chance to lock horns, circle each other like rutting stags and settle the matter for once and all.

    Also, by casting unproveable doubt on Frodo's dancing ability he is absolved from the need to answer Frodo's arguments by force of written reason alone. It's a Classic Forum Technique - I've seen it used on other dance forums also - and is of course pretty much unanswerable without (at the very least) video evidence, or maybe a handwritten personal reference from Lily Barker. That's why it's a very effective undermining technique but also, IMO, below the belt. The last refuge of anyone losing in a discussion is to get personal so although Gerry's got a lot of good points to make, overall it weakens his argument.

    Having said that, I've sometimes been surprised by someone sounding very authoritative on a forum turning out to be a mediocre dancer. But we all need to make allowances and adjustments for that when reading posts, challenging people to duels is just soooo 18th Century.
    I don't do locking horns and I really don't want to get into a confrontational situation.

    Even if I saw his dancing the last thing I would do is start slagging him off especially as my own opinion of my dancing is that I am just OK and nothing special.

    As I said before some of his comments have led me to believe that he is not very experienced, that does not then mean he is a bad dancers.

    Any way its in Frodo's corner whether he introduces himself or not.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Well, Ceroc is taught on a beat by beat basis - sure this accummulation of beats lead to moves for the guys, but we always talk about the follower following beat by beat.

    I've never followed (and I'm not about to start now..) but Val tells me that she never knows what a guy has lead in terms of a move because she's just concerned with following beat by beat.

    That is the nature of a freestyle dance...

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    With all due respect, what a load of cr4p.
    How then does a follower learn to follow?

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Frodo has dismissed points related to WCS made by people who do have a known pedigree in WCS.
    I personally don't think any mention of WCS was relevant to the good question asked in the OP. Frodo threw it in as a jibe without substantiating in any way what he said. ("You Westies.......")
    He didn't appear to be making any sensible points about WCS. And he should have if he was going to bring it up at all. Another Classic Forum Technique of dismissive and veiled aggression.


    Frodo claims that certain elements of WCS are less central to the definition of the dance than others and gives (not altogether satisfactory to my thinking) justification for his views.
    I just can't see that on this thread - were these views expressed on another thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobD
    How often is it remarked that only as we progress in our dancing are our eyes opened and we realise just how little we actually know and how much more there is to learn?
    Yes indeedy! But it's for each of us to discover that rather than have it pointed out superciliously, and possibly inaccurately, on a public forum!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobD
    I think you're wrong jivecat. There are people who might place value on someone's posts based on their dance pedigree (however that might be assessed) but Gerry isn't one of them.
    I'm very happy to accept what you say as I'm sure my knowledge is patchier than yours in this respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry
    I don't do locking horns and I really don't want to get into a confrontational situation.
    I was being slightly flippant (purely in the interests of making the forum fractionally more interesting to read ). Why, then, did you say you wanted to meet him? Especially just after saying he had "limited knowledge"?

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    I just can't see that on this thread - were these views expressed on another thread?
    Yes, the 'is it me' thread. It was from debate on that thread that Frodo's comments re Westies and reasoning was born.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I think the concept of 'authority' is important here. Frodo
    I would go further.

    Frodo regularly makes statements on this forum without any explanation and any reasonable person would realise that statement on its own would cause a negetive response from most if not all posters.

    When he does give an explanation with a statement there is often a mismatch between the statement and the expalantion.

    I appreciate that some people cannot express themselves as well as others and if you are taking his posts seriously I think the request to meet Frodo is an attempt to see if this is the case.

    Of course if you think he is just winding us up then such a meeting would serve no useful purpose.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    With all due respect, what a load of cr4p.

    Unless I'm misunderstanding, you're saying that in order to have confidence and good technique as a leader or follower in MJ, you need to learn all of the moves?
    How then does a follower learn to follow?
    Why would I care?
    I was merely responding to your implication, that (as I said) 'to have confidence and good technique as a leader or follower in MJ, you need to learn all of the moves'.
    I believe that there are plenty of MJ leaders and followers who have confidence and good technique without knowing all of the moves and I can't see any reason why they should.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Why would I care?
    I was merely responding to your implication, that (as I said) 'to have confidence and good technique as a leader or follower in MJ, you need to learn all of the moves'.
    I believe that there are plenty of MJ leaders and followers who have confidence and good technique without knowing all of the moves and I can't see any reason why they should.
    Firstly I said all or msot of the moves.

    Secondly if you cannot provide an alternative approach to learning technique/muscle memory and confidence within the MJ learning model I find it difficult to see how your comment has merit.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    a good follower in this context she will need to learn all or most of the moves.
    Ant, your post reminds me of the sort of leaders who half way through a dance shout things like “I’m gonna do a half-roger-dingly-dong with a twisted three quarter man-spin, followed by an ironing board half head drop…..brace yourself, Love!”.

    Might as well be speaking in Chinese…I have no idea what moves are called, I just follow. It almost sounds as if you’re suggesting that a follower should know all the moves so she can anticipate what’s coming next, which is absolutely the wrong way to go about following in freestyle. The clues in the name…you lead, we follow. If you can’t lead it safely and precisely, don’t do it in a freestyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    How then does a follower learn to follow?
    Simply put, a great leader can make a total novice follower look good, just by leading well. Followers don’t need to know moves to dance, they just need to be lead well.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Yes, the 'is it me' thread. It was from debate on that thread that Frodo's comments re Westies and reasoning was born.
    Ah, right. I thought there must be something else. I haven't followed all of that thread.

    It would be nice to get back to Gerry's original idea of finding out how people seek and respond to criticism, and how to push their dancing on.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Firstly I said all or msot of the moves.

    Secondly if you cannot provide an alternative approach to learning technique/muscle memory and confidence within the MJ learning model I find it difficult to see how your comment has merit.
    Ant
    Nobody knows most or all the moves used in MJ or WCS.

    As a follower all you can do is create a frame and be prepared to move quickly or slowly depending on your follow.

    As a leader, we need to be taught how to lead as a beginner it will be all down to pulling with yours thats why its called arm jive. The longer you dance and the more experiences and probably advice you receive you may find yourself changing your lead where you then use your body.

    As a leader I want a follower to give me a frame, I can then manipulate this frame to engage the follower into moving through any number of shapes. As I said before and Lory commented on this is when the follower will get a buzz out of being moved in way she had never thought of.

    As a leader I love it when I get a smile or comment on a move that I have just lead.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    a half-roger-dingly-dong with a twisted three quarter man-spin, followed by an ironing board half head drop…..
    Aw Gaud... don't ya just hate that move
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    Re: Rough Leading

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    a handwritten personal reference from Lily Barker
    Cor, I want one of those

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Aw Gaud... don't ya just hate that move
    But... that's my Favourite Ever Move!

    I spent bloody years learning that one.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 25th-October-2010 at 01:20 PM.

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    Re: Rough Leading

    Moves tend to mess up dancing for both lead and follow.

    Moves are a useful learning mechanism, but what I think you should be learning is the movement. But at some point - and this is probably the most important point of differentiation between a beginner and an advanced dancer - you stop thinking of the specific moves. What I mean by a movement is probably much the same as what Rocky's talking about when he says each beat.

    I'm fond of saying that I only know four moves. What I mean by that is there are a limited set of basic movements that you actually do in MJ, most of 100s of moves are really just variations on the basic (for example, the back hander and open neckbreak are really the same set of movements, with a different lead and connection).

    For the lead, they should be thinking ahead (at least to the next few movements; ideally to the next phrase of music). Moves can help with that, but they can also hinder. For example, if I lead the first few movements of long 12 beat move and something gets messed up at beat three, does this mean the whole move is messed up? Or I can just slide from the movement that's just happened into some other movement.

    For a follow, I think it's even more important (I'm speaking as a lead here). One of the worst sins in a follow is pre-empting the lead, because they think they know the move I'm leading. I find this far more common among less experienced dancers. The more experienced - and certainly the better - follows follow each movement I lead.

    On the original topic: I think that the stronger your lead is, the more precise it has to be. If I'm doing a really strong lead for a spin, then it has to be exactly on the follow's line of movement. If it's not, then it's most likely to knock them off balance. If I use a light lead, then I've got much more margin for error.

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