View Poll Results: What is your preference

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  • I prefer a light lead

    14 58.33%
  • I prefer a strong lead

    1 4.17%
  • I prefer a strong follower

    3 12.50%
  • I prefer a light follower

    9 37.50%
  • I prefer my follower to tell me if my lead is too strong

    7 29.17%
  • I prefer my lead to tell me if my follow is too strong or light

    8 33.33%
  • If my lead hurts me I will just ignore it and dont dance with him again

    5 20.83%
  • What is all the fuss about ??????

    0 0%
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Thread: Strong or Light ??

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Strong or Light ??

    From the amount of PM's I have received this person is well known by the followers and they are making their own stands by keeping well clear of him
    .

    It does make me wonder why they are doing their complaining to you and not directly to him. If every follower who had a problem either said no to him, and why, or explicitly stated that they didn't want to be hurt, then there might be some chance of sorting the situation out.

    The young lady is the one who needs to be the confrontational character. Unless this man hears complaints directly from his followers he is unlikely to believe that he has a problem, anyway.

    Strong Leads
    Some men do have strong leads, I noticed that the mood of the lead can also determine the strength of their lead (stronger when stressed or nervous), however, if this lead is well know and if it is causing discomfort to the follower, or 'possible' discomfort - TELL HIM ! Much better then telling others and then it appearing here. I am sure the man concerned must know who we are talking about and he must be feeling very embarassed and possible hurt by it all.


    Light Leads
    This could be the reverse, when the lead is very light, the follower often compensates and clings on (aka stirring thick custard) - possible causing injury to both parties.

    Whoops, can some nice kind Mod please change my option to make sense (I prefer my lead to tell me if my lead is too strong or light) should be if my FOLLOW ........... thanks xx
    Last edited by Minnie M; 24th-October-2010 at 01:31 PM.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  2. #2
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    why the choice between two subjective extremes ? I want my lead to be just right. Is that too much to ask for?

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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    I think it's not a question of being a strong or light lead, what's more important for me is being lead properly, which can be done light, strong or even better, somewhere in the middle.

    Just thinking of a recent great example of what I'm saying would be the couple of lovely dances I had on Friday night with Latin Lover. I could dance and chat with him almost on auto pilot as his lead was precise, smooth with lots of fun and musicality thrown in, not too strong and not too light.

    My experience of leads who get it wrong, but think they are fantastic dancers, in every case, is that they won't be criticised. They see it more as a failing on the followers part if a follower dares to criticise them.

    As a result of the above I have chosen from the poll that if a lead hurts me, I'll say nothing but not dance with them again.

  4. #4
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Apparently the guys that have the srongest leads are not getting any sex...

  5. #5
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Apparently the guys that have the srongest leads are not getting any sex...
    yup, you could be right, I thought it was a mood swing

    I am going to be concerned about strong leads now


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    I am going to be concerned about strong leads now
    What, concerned enough to... you know.....?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    What, concerned enough to... you know.....?
    A lady never says


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    his lead was precise, smooth with lots of fun and musicality thrown in, not too strong and not too light.
    Yes, I can cope with a strong lead if it is absolutely accurate and takes into account my ability to follow and work with it. The most damaging physically is a powerful lead that is slightly mistimed, misplaced, jerky, off balance or makes massive physical demands on me by not preparing me adequately for a sudden, ambitious move. A musical lead harnesses the music to help prepare the follower.

    There's not many i would refuse to dance with again but I do tend to remember pain!

  9. #9
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    As always with these debates, I think there's a terminology issue.

    I'm not sure how "Strong" is being used here - does it mean "forceful"?

    Similarly, I'm not sure what "Light" means - does it mean "not much contact"? Fingertip lead, that sort of thing?


    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I think it's not a question of being a strong or light lead, what's more important for me is being lead properly, which can be done light, strong or even better, somewhere in the middle.
    The amount of physical energy required to lead is the amount that will provide an effective lead. That energy can be zero; it's perfectly possible to lead and follow a MJ dance, with no physical contact. But where's the fun in that?

    If you provide enough of a pre-lead, in terms of positioning, the lead itself is typically a formaility. If you find you need to provide physical force to lead a move, then either you're leading it wrong or your partner is following it wrong. Either way, the answer is the same - don't lead that move in social dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    My experience of leads who get it wrong, but think they are fantastic dancers, in every case, is that they won't be criticised. They see it more as a failing on the followers part if a follower dares to criticise them.
    And don't you forget it, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    As a result of the above I have chosen from the poll that if a lead hurts me, I'll say nothing but not dance with them again.
    Sounds reasonable.

    Also, if they ask "But why won't you dance with me?", it's then reasonable to explain your reasons, honestly, to that person.

  10. #10
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    I'm not sure how "Strong" is being used here - does it mean "forceful"?

    I haven't taken it as meaning forceful.

    I've tried to answer the poll but I don't understand how a follow can be too light, if she's following what the leads intended?

    As I said before, I like a lead to adjust their lead, acording to whats required and if its fast music with more intricate changes of direction etc, then I'll prefur a stronger lead, if its soft flowey music, then I'd like a soft flowey lead

    Fussy moi?
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  11. #11
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I haven't taken it as meaning forceful.
    Yes - that's the impression I took also.

    And I'm not keen on "strong" as meaning "forceful". It can, ahem, lead to a situation where leaders get all wishy-washy and provide ambiguous leads, because they think that a "strong" (= "clear") lead is somehow wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I've tried to answer the poll but I don't understand how a follow can be too light, if she's following what the leads intended?
    I'm not sure, in Modern Jive at least.

    In Tango, a follower who provided no resistance at all would be too "light".

    So maybe it's a follower who zooms off at the slightest touch - something like that?

  12. #12
    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I haven't taken it as meaning forceful.
    Yep, I didn't take strong to mean forceful either. A clear lead can be strong or light but to me a forceful lead is one who trys to put me and my body where it doesn't naturally want to be based on the body movement/direction I've been led into. Or one who pulls me out of moves before it's finished or I've settled or pulls me out of turns or tries to turn/spin me more than is comfortable. Or squeezes the life out of my body and/or hand when we dance.

  13. #13
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    I don't think the weight of the follower is linked to how good a dancer they are. A light follow may be a wet fish, and a heavy follow may be wearing concrete shoes. Alternately the heavy follow may be waiting for the clear lead and following it perfectly while the light follow reads the lead instantly and almost telepathically responds perfectly.

    I've danced with all four. My preference is absolutely for the latter, but that obviously doesn't necessarily mean they're always the best dancer, or that other leaders wouldn't prefer something different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I've tried to answer the poll but I don't understand how a follow can be too light, if she's following what the leads intended?
    To use a car analogy, you don't want a car without power steering because you have to physically push the car around a bend. However a car with no feedback from the road at all is just horrible to drive, and potentially dangerous. I would say a follower is too light if there's no physical feedback - how can you have a one-way conversation..

  14. #14
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Alternately the heavy follow may be waiting for the clear lead and following it perfectly while the light follow reads the lead instantly and almost telepathically responds perfectly.
    Errr, I'm not sure what "heavy" means now...

    If a lead is clear, a good follow will follow that lead, when it is given (and, of course, she'll have been prepped by the relevant pre-lead). A good follow won't hang around and wait for "confirmation", because that's not good following technique.

    The amount of resistance (is that what "heavy" means?) a follower provides will vary of course, but mainly that should be due to the style of dancing.

  15. #15
    Registered User MarkW's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    I remember being taught an exercise, on more than one occasion, where the lead and follow place their palms flat against their partner's palms with close to zero force involved. Then, keeping the hands still they gradually push a little harder so the compression increases. Obviously this must stop when someone overpowers the other's strength but, in reality, you'd never go that far. After reaching a maximum comfortable compression then gradually that is reduced with hands still stationary. This cycle can be repeated as desired keeping the compression matched all the time.

    This sometimes then progressed to using a more usual hand arrangement (man's left, lady's right, waist height) and similarly establishing a tension and compression then, once with the follow's eyes closed, the lead tries to lead backwards and forwards smoothly sometimes taking a few steps, sometimes maybe only one step or even a rock step.

    What I have found is that matching the tension/compression that the lady wants seems to produce best results. My natural default is a low tension lead but sometimes that just won't work because more is needed from me to match my partner. I'm sure that they are adjusting to me too.

    On average I find that low tension is almost essential for most beginners as they learn to develop a frame, otherwise they might be hurt as they allow their elbows to lock out forwards or go back behind their body. If someone with no frame wants to dance "heavy" then I find that very awkward and just try to cope. When I dance with more experienced dancers some offer a low tension and some a higher tension.

    So, I prefer low tension/lightness. But matching my partner is the key thing. I find this more difficult the stronger they want to be.

  16. #16
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I have chosen from the poll that if a lead hurts me, I'll say nothing but not dance with them again.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Sounds reasonable.

    Also, if they ask "But why won't you dance with me?", it's then reasonable to explain your reasons, honestly, to that person.
    Yes it is and I do.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    I've tried to answer the poll but I don't understand how a follow can be too light, if she's following what the leads intended?
    Sorry, my fault ...... a light lead is simply when you don't grip or cling on the the leader's hand.

    e.g: You need a stronger follow in Rock 'n Roll, maybe because it is a faster dance, you almost 'smack' the leader's hand when making contact as it is needed for the connection from the lead to direct you to the next move.

    whereas, in West Coast Swing, 'holding-on' or gripping the lead's hand is not necessary and will upset the flow of the dance.

    Modern Jive sits in the middle of the above two

    (hope that makes sense) - I think David Baily explained it more clearly

    PS: David Barker is the master of the light lead, you can even "Shadow" dance with him (when hands don't even touch)
    Last edited by Minnie M; 25th-October-2010 at 07:59 PM.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  18. #18
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    PS: David Barker is the master of the light lead, you can even "Shadow" dance with him (when hands don't even touch)
    I once likened following David B to feeling like a light silk scarf that he was gently and delicately guiding through the air.

  19. #19
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Sorry, my fault ...... a light lead is simply when you don't grip or cling on the the leader's hand.
    A little confused here. We always teach that one should never (OK - almost never, if I'm to be a bit picky) grip a partner's hand - and I was taught this from the outset in both MJ and Lindy.

    In my own experience, it's quite possible - and not uncommon - to have a very strong and/or rough lead (or follow) with no gripping or clinging involved. It doesn't really work for me as a measure of lightness of lead.

  20. #20
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    Re: Strong or Light ??

    Interesting thread! As to a preference i definately prefer a heavier or better connected follower to a light or poorly connected one! Being Heavy and strong or however you want to term it does not mean that they are not very responsive though. I think people would describe some of the best followers as being heavy and yet the truth is they are just totally Connected or look for that connection constantly and yet they have lightening fast responses, Strong connection but move fast! ..... The whole thing for me is about a level of trust.... if i'm connected throughout the dance then when the follow wants to play, change the rythmn, use leverage or vice versa then i/she stands a much better chance of feeling it and more importantly reacting to it if we are connected constantly! So i want to feel the weight of my partners hand at the very least! Constant connection does not translate to leading every part of the pattern or move though.
    Another point, i think people can be Heavy or strong by not fully understanding or engaging their frame and as a consequence they can tend to use their arms more and then the flip side of this is someone who engages their frame beautifully but then is too light in their connection! It's a constant challenge and in my opinion it's the most challenging part of the dances we love....The best tip i got about all this was to establish a good connection before you even start dancing with a partner! The 1st 20 seconds of any dance is arguably the most important 20 seconds of the dance! As with anything if you get a good platform, start well and get on the same page from the off then then you stand a better chance of having that dance or those moments that we all live for.
    Last edited by FoxyFunkster; 26th-October-2010 at 03:06 PM. Reason: spelling mistakes

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