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Thread: WCS footwork - how important is it?

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    WCS footwork - how important is it?

    The more experienced dancers here seem to think that excessive footwork in WCS (ie, doing every triple, fancy stuff, fancy anchors etc) is not necessary. Giving the idea that as long as the body lead is good, then all is well.

    But why?

    Is is because people generally think that "fancy" footwork is needless or is it that they are simply not quick enough on their feet to do it themselves so to save the embaressment, skip as much footwork as possible!!

    Do J&T win the US Open by just standing there tap steppin' or just standing still, doing absolutely NO FOOTWORK? (Please link a vid if they do!)

    Do people here watch the All Stars feet at all and watch what they can do with them!!!

    (I just wish I could do all the fancy stuff, but because I can't atm ):, I'm NOT gonna give it up as a bad job and skip it all!)

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Having resisted the urge to respond as facetiously as you did to my enquiry re the Welsh Champs result...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    The more experienced dancers here
    Who are you referring to? It would be useful to name them or at least point to evidence supporting your perception that they

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    seem to think that excessive footwork in WCS (ie, doing every triple, fancy stuff, fancy anchors etc) is not necessary.
    And how do you arrive from that perception to the conclusion that it gives

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    the idea that as long as the body lead is good, then all is well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Is is because people generally think that "fancy" footwork is needless or is it that they are simply not quick enough on their feet to do it themselves so to save the embaressment, skip as much footwork as possible!!
    In some cases I don't believe it is a deliberate and conscious omission (as the use of 'skip' would suggest) I think for many leaders the lack of footwork is a default position as they are concentrating on leading their follow rather than moving themselves (though there is of course a strong interrelationship between the two)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Do J&T win the US Open by just standing there tap steppin' or just standing still, doing absolutely NO FOOTWORK? (Please link a vid if they do!)
    And J&T winning the US Open with a choreographed routine is related to social WCS in the UK how exactly? Other than people ripping their patterns (in MJ showcases as well as WCS to be fair)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Do people here watch the All Stars feet at all and watch what they can do with them!!!
    Probably quite frequently. Aspiration doesn't always lead to emulation though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    (I just wish I could do all the fancy stuff, but because I can't atm ):, I'm NOT gonna give it up as a bad job and skip it all!)
    Again, you seem to assume that the person/people you have in mind have made a deliberate and conscious decision to omit triple steps or have I misinterpreted your words?

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    The more experienced dancers here seem to think that excessive footwork in WCS (ie, doing every triple, fancy stuff, fancy anchors etc) is not necessary. Giving the idea that as long as the body lead is good, then all is well.

    But why?

    Is is because people generally think that "fancy" footwork is needless or is it that they are simply not quick enough on their feet to do it themselves so to save the embaressment, skip as much footwork as possible!!

    Do J&T win the US Open by just standing there tap steppin' or just standing still, doing absolutely NO FOOTWORK? (Please link a vid if they do!)

    Do people here watch the All Stars feet at all and watch what they can do with them!!!

    (I just wish I could do all the fancy stuff, but because I can't atm ):, I'm NOT gonna give it up as a bad job and skip it all!)
    I am not sure if I would be classified as experienced but I know I bastardise my WCS by not using all the triple steps. I think on my part it is because I find moving my feet in a prescribed pattern really difficult.

    The Top professional dancers will add and take away triples because they are real dancers and they are able to be musical in so many more ways than we mortals

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Footwork serves 2 main purposes in WCS:
    - move your body some place (which is kinda of useful for leading & following)
    - to express the rythm inherent to the dance (for example, many say if you don't triple step (at all), you're denaturing wcs) & your own musicality.

    Does that help answer the question at all - I've put the key words in bold

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Gosh, its a good question but a very difficult one to answer IMO..

    I personally think people get too hung up on footwork patterns in WCS and I think it sometimes all the counting, hinders more than helps..

    BUT

    to learn the dance and to get one started on how its supposed to feel etc, one needs a starting point and the basic fundamentals of the dance and having a basic set of beginner moves/footwork is a great place to start. i.e,
    men stepping 'back' on count 'one' and ladies coming 'forward' on the right foot. at the very end of 'one'

    As one progresses, you can make variations of literally every foot pattern, which sounds as though its making a mockery of what you first learn but its not!

    Triple steps are only really 'needed', when one changes direction, spins or accelerates but one can add them, to do variations. If a leader lead me forward and carried on walking for say, 8 beats, I would just do 8 steps, with no triples at all! But I 'could' do 1, 2 3&4 5&6 7, 8 or 1&2, 3&4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 4 lots of triples etc

    Does any of that make sense?
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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    - to express the rythm inherent to the dance (for example, many say if you don't triple step (at all), you're denaturing wcs) & your own musicality.
    I should have added, you can use the triples etc, to accent the music


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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Ok - well this is the key question. (And which somewhat holds me back from going into WCS - after I hear the horror stories of people taking 6 months to master the most basic of basics - due to the footwork).

    And more specifically, how important are the triples?

    If we take this simple example:



    (Just from the guy's perspective):

    I could accept that the first triple step is needed so they guy gets nicely into position in time - although perhaps there is some alternative footwork which would achieve the same - but not as effectively.

    The second triple - as they move back into the anchor is perhaps unnecessary - and I could imagine you could quite easily just do something else.

    This is just my view as an MJ dancer..........interested to the WCS insider views......

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Thing is you NEED to learn footwork in most dances, but once you know them you don't necessary have to use/show the steps - check out my favourite male pro

    BTW Kyle & Sarah will be at Rebel Yell in Woking on the 6th November, their classes/workshops are amazing and they work their butts off on that day with about FOUR workshops and a taster class in the evening too PLUS an amazing cabaret
    Last edited by Minnie M; 20th-October-2010 at 04:42 PM.


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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    And more specifically, how important are the triples?
    The thing with a triple or a chassis is that you end up on the same foot as you started. If you just took a step over the same dancing time you'd end up on the other foot. This makes a huge difference to the leader if he's expecting you to be on a particular foot and you are not on that foot.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    It's completely dependent on the music. Less footwork might suite more lyrical/dreamy tracks, more footwork can feel better on some busy blues type of tracks, rolling count footwork might suit music with a 'swung' rhythm.

    People who variate & syncopate walk-walks, triples and anchors always look more 'dancey', plus it also disguises the beginning and end of their patterns.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Thing is you NEED to learn footwork in most dances, but once you know them you don't necessary have to use/show the steps

    I agree completely. For the Lindy perspective (yet again ) - the footwork is crucial. You learn it, you polish it, you hone it, and then once you have it ingrained, you start to learn how to vary it. You need to know the rules at an instinctive level before you can break them in a manner that works in the dance.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    I agree completely. For the Lindy perspective (yet again ) - the footwork is crucial. You learn it, you polish it, you hone it, and then once you have it ingrained, you start to learn how to vary it. You need to know the rules at an instinctive level before you can break them in a manner that works in the dance.
    Its EXACTLY the same in WCS
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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    BUT

    to learn the dance and to get one started on how its supposed to feel etc, one needs a starting point and the basic fundamentals of the dance and having a basic set of beginner moves/footwork is a great place to start. i.e,
    men stepping 'back' on count 'one' and ladies coming 'forward' on the right foot. at the very end of 'one'

    As one progresses, you can make variations of literally every foot pattern, which sounds as though its making a mockery of what you first learn but its not!

    Triple steps are only really 'needed', when one changes direction, spins or accelerates but one can add them, to do variations. If a leader lead me forward and carried on walking for say, 8 beats, I would just do 8 steps, with no triples at all! But I 'could' do 1, 2 3&4 5&6 7, 8 or 1&2, 3&4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 4 lots of triples etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Thing is you NEED to learn footwork in most dances, but once you know them you don't necessary have to use/show the steps - check out my favourite male pro

    BTW Kyle & Sarah ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Its EXACTLY the same in WCS
    Then again speaking of Kyle and Sarah and footwork reminded me of something.

    Don't they teach absolute beginners the movements without anything resembling a triple step.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    I agree completely. For the Lindy perspective (yet again ) - the footwork is crucial. You learn it, you polish it, you hone it, and then once you have it ingrained, you start to learn how to vary it. You need to know the rules at an instinctive level before you can break them in a manner that works in the dance.
    Quoted for truth

    [frodo]Then again speaking of Kyle and Sarah and footwork reminded me of something.

    Don't they teach absolute beginners the movements without anything resembling a triple step. [/quote]So what if they don't?

    I know from experience that if you throw absolute beginners all the detail in one go they get overwhelmed. I don't teach the purpose of the anchour step until their third week for example...... but that doesn't mean I don't consider it vital to the dance.

    As we're throwing around names though, how about this line from Deborah S.
    Get 'em hooked, then teach them how to dance.
    I think that probably explains what you've heard pretty well.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Ok - well this is the key question. (And which somewhat holds me back from going into WCS - after I hear the horror stories of people taking 6 months to master the most basic of basics - due to the footwork).

    And more specifically, how important are the triples?

    If we take this simple example:



    (Just from the guy's perspective):

    I could accept that the first triple step is needed so they guy gets nicely into position in time - although perhaps there is some alternative footwork which would achieve the same - but not as effectively.

    The second triple - as they move back into the anchor is perhaps unnecessary - and I could imagine you could quite easily just do something else.

    This is just my view as an MJ dancer..........interested to the WCS insider views......
    I think this example of teaching the whip goes against every thing i have taught. he seems to step to the side on beat 1, when really he should have taken a step back and slightly to the left hand side of the slot. Secondly on Beat 6 it should have been a step forward instead of a step back away from the follower. then the triple step would have made more sense as he slowed down the follower

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    So what if they don't?
    It illustrates the shape can be taught by methods other than footwork, and hence tends to reduce the importance of footwork.


    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I know from experience that if you throw absolute beginners all the detail in one go they get overwhelmed. I don't teach the purpose of the anchour step until their third week for example...... but that doesn't mean I don't consider it vital to the dance.
    Does beg the question of at what point you consider your beginners to be dancing WCS.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I think this example of teaching the whip goes against every thing i have taught. he seems to step to the side on beat 1, when really he should have taken a step back and slightly to the left hand side of the slot. Secondly on Beat 6 it should have been a step forward instead of a step back away from the follower. then the triple step would have made more sense as he slowed down the follower
    Funny, that is the way I was taught, which was over 10 years ago, possibly the age of that vid. Lots has changed since I first learnt, for example, the shuga-push is completely different (it was taught the with a flat hand)


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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    It illustrates the shape can be taught by methods other than footwork, and hence tends to reduce the importance of footwork.




    Does beg the question of at what point you consider your beginners to be dancing WCS.
    Frodo
    I have been to lessons taught by Tatiana / Jordan & Kyle / Sarah
    When they have used the method you have mentioned, it is to give you an idea of how the move flows especially when there are loads of arm movements. In MJ we are used to lots of arms movements especially as it is Arm Jive. I have been told by them that MJivers often pick up the arm movements much quicker than the Yanks, but they then go through the footwork which helps to keep up the timing.

    The footwork and the ability to produce the lovely stretch is what makes WCS so different to other dances.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    When they have used the method you have mentioned, it is to give you an idea of how the move flows especially when there are loads of arm movements.
    How it flows / the shape feels absolutely. I'm sure your point about modern jivers being good at arm movements is correct.

    In my example it wasn't related in any way to complex arm movements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    The footwork and the ability to produce the lovely stretch is what makes WCS so different to other dances.
    Absolutely agree on the stretch. But modern jive aside the footwork seems not hugely different from other swing dances, and quite inconsistent in how it is taught.
    Last edited by frodo; 20th-October-2010 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Reply to both parts in single post

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    I agree completely. For the Lindy perspective (yet again ) - the footwork is crucial. You learn it, you polish it, you hone it, and then once you have it ingrained, you start to learn how to vary it. You need to know the rules at an instinctive level before you can break them in a manner that works in the dance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Its EXACTLY the same in WCS
    However (normal rather than Hollywood style) Lindy music as far as I've experienced it (correct me if I'm wrong) is typically fast.

    At a basic level it seems to me the footwork plays quite a role in being connected to your partner and it feels bad if you attempt to omit it (or get it wrong).

    WCS is typically slower and with a looser/more distant connection, so omitting or simply not getting the taught footwork didn't have the same immediate effect.

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