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Thread: WCS footwork - how important is it?

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    However (normal rather than Hollywood style) Lindy music as far as I've experienced it (correct me if I'm wrong) is typically fast..


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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post

    I love that clip. Although I've always been intrigued about the rules that allowed Frida Segerdahl to compete with two different partners - and hence come second and third in the competition. A little unusual?


    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    At a basic level it seems to me the footwork plays quite a role in being connected to your partner and it feels bad if you attempt to omit it (or get it wrong).
    Have a look at this clip ( giving a social dancing demo) - speedwise, for Lindy, it's at the lower end of high tempo (around 180bpm, iirc)
    They spend most of the track messing around with their footwork, according to whatever they feel in the music. They're not doing a great deal in the way of 'set' footwork patterns - but their footwork technique is a vital part of being able to connect with each other, and execute that footwork.

    The point being that in Lindy, you learn the basic 'set' footwork patterns in order to learn the footwork techniques, building up to the point where you have the technique to mess around with those patterns to your heart's content. As you say, it plays a huge role in your connection with your partner, but it helps to know the role the footwork plays in that connection. It's a far cry from doing the same steps at the same time - I can be doing entirely different footwork patterns from my partner, yet still enjoy great connection - if our technique is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    WCS is typically slower and with a looser/more distant connection, so omitting or simply not getting the taught footwork didn't have the same immediate effect.
    I would have to consult a WCS expert on that, but from the little I have done, and the amount I have watched, I suspect it works in a very similar way to what I have just described in Lindy.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Good connection is good connection ! It's not related to the type of dance you do or the speed of song you dance to! In fact dancing to slower music more often than not highlights the lack of rhythmn in people`s footwork and poor connection far more than dancing to the faster stuff!

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    ...

    Have a look at this clip ( giving a social dancing demo) - speedwise, for Lindy, it's at the lower end of high tempo (around 180bpm, iirc)
    They spend most of the track messing around with their footwork, according to whatever they feel in the music. They're not doing a great deal in the way of 'set' footwork patterns - but their footwork technique is a vital par of being able to connect with each other, and execute that footwork.
    I found that a very enjoyable track to watch (possibly because of how connected it looked). Despite the variation it seems fairly obvious that the footwork is playing an important role.

    I did notice that there were some points (like the kicks/mirroring bits) and the ballroom type bit where the footwork looked fairly set.

    I'm unclear if they (similarly to Charleston type bits) are part of Lindy proper though.

    The point being that in Lindy, you learn the basic 'set' footwork patterns in order to learn the footwork techniques, building up to the point where you have the technique to mess around with those patterns to your heart's content. As you say, it plays a huge role in your connection with your partner, but it helps to know the role the footwork plays in that connection. It's a far cry from doing the same steps at the same time - I can be doing entirely different footwork patterns from my partner, yet still enjoy great connection - if our technique is good.
    .
    I don't doubt it, and thanks for the explanation.


    I'm guessing your perspective (as for many of experienced west coast dancers) is from the viewpoint of a very serious dancer.

    The point can be to learn the footwork in order to get the technique to mess around.

    I'm curious if that would be relevant for someone who say does six or twelve months of weekly classes and then stops.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo
    I'm curious if that would be relevant for someone who say does six or twelve months of weekly classes and then stops.
    If they want to be any good, then yes footwork is very relevant. If they just come for the atmosphere, enjoy bouncing around the room and don't mind if they're not necessarily that good at it (or think they are good even if nobody else does......) then probably not.

    The bottom line is that you get out what you put in, and not everyone has the same motivations.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I did notice that there were some points (like the kicks/mirroring bits) and the ballroom type bit where the footwork looked fairly set.

    I'm unclear if they (similarly to Charleston type bits) are part of Lindy proper though.
    Looks can be deceiving... even the parts which looked set are a product of the process I described (learn footwork + technique, learn to vary / lead / follow)

    As for what is part of Lindy 'proper'... I'm not sure how to answer that. Much of Lindy was derived or swiped from other dances, and it's been constantly evolving right from the beginning. For example - a lot of Charleston moves were incorporated - although the feel and timing was changed slightly to go with the change in music. Another example - there's definite influences from WCS finding their way back into Lindy. It's still evolving, and I hope it always will.

    So does that clip show unadulterated authentic old-school Lindy? I can't answer that. Is it pure 100% Lindy all the way through? To my mind, yes. Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I'm guessing your perspective (as for many of experienced west coast dancers) is from the viewpoint of a very serious dancer.
    A very serious dancer? Hmmm. I dance to have fun. I take my learning fairly seriously for two reasons - one is that the better I get the more fun I have, and the other is that it helps me teach.... but I dance to have fun. Does this make me a 'serious dancer'?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The point can be to learn the footwork in order to get the technique to mess around.
    The point being to learn the technique and footwork hand-in-hand in order to get the skill to play around with it. I don't learn footwork to learn technique - if anything, it's the other way around - the technique makes the footwork easier to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I'm curious if that would be relevant for someone who say does six or twelve months of weekly classes and then stops.
    I'd say so, yes. If you have the technique, the moves are easy. If you don't, the moves don't mean anything.

    Because of the visual similarities between MJ and WCS, or MJ and Lindy, I think there's a tendency for someone with an MJ background to assume that learning one of these new dances is really just a matter of learning new moves, and maybe a few techniques and conventions on top (eg dancing slotted WCS etc) - and I feel this is a mistake which can block one from learning the most important parts of said dances. I know this, because I was guilty of the same when I started Lindy, and I wasted far too much time finding that out. If I'd been able to throw away those preconceptions, and start with the assumption that I knew nothing, I'd have learned much faster.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Ok - well this is the key question. (And which somewhat holds me back from going into WCS - after I hear the horror stories of people taking 6 months to master the most basic of basics - due to the footwork).
    I don't think six months is really that long.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    If we take this simple example:


    Which looks just like a very well known Lindyhop move to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    The second triple - as they move back into the anchor is perhaps unnecessary - and I could imagine you could quite easily just do something else.
    Based on the fact that the Youtube video posted looks just like a Lindyhop move, I say do what you want provided it doesn't disrupt the flow and basic timing of the dance. In Lindyhop, if I don't want to do a triple step on the 3-4 or 7-8 and I can make the dance work without it, then I don't; the dance doesn't suddenly stop because I omitted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The thing with a triple or a chassis is that you end up on the same foot as you started. If you just took a step over the same dancing time you'd end up on the other foot. This makes a huge difference to the leader if he's expecting you to be on a particular foot and you are not on that foot.
    In Lindyhop every follower knows which foot their leader expects them to be on, if a follower is good enough to vary it then it's because they're good enough to do so without disrupting the flow of the dance. I'd guess the same applies to WCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    You learn it, you polish it, you hone it, and then once you have it ingrained, you start to learn how to vary it. You need to know the rules at an instinctive level before you can break them in a manner that works in the dance.
    Master it before you mess with it!

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    As for what is part of Lindy 'proper'... I'm not sure how to answer that. Much of Lindy was derived or swiped from other dances, and it's been constantly evolving right from the beginning. For example - a lot of Charleston moves were incorporated - although the feel and timing was changed slightly to go with the change in music. Another example - there's definite influences from WCS finding their way back into Lindy. It's still evolving, and I hope it always will.
    Thanks for that helpful context.

    I get the impression the Charleston was a dance where the right footwork wasn't optional, given the hazard the wrong footwork might present for a partner, perhaps unlike other elements in Lindy.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    A very serious dancer? Hmmm. I dance to have fun. I take my learning fairly seriously for two reasons - one is that the better I get the more fun I have, and the other is that it helps me teach.... but I dance to have fun. Does this make me a 'serious dancer'?
    Not necessarily.

    Serious because of the amount of investment you're willing to put into a single dance.

    Someone who is just looking to do a six months or a year of weekly classes may have a serious approach to learning technique (for example), but may not be counted as a serious danceX dancer, due to the limited investment he or she is willing (or able) to make.

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    If they want to be any good, then yes footwork is very relevant. If they just come for the atmosphere, enjoy bouncing around the room and don't mind if they're not necessarily that good at it (or think they are good even if nobody else does......) then probably not.

    The bottom line is that you get out what you put in, and not everyone has the same motivations.
    For the sake of discussion, I'd take it as a given they are serious about learning within the bounds of the limited time/limited resources and level of ability.

    Taking the six month example it brings up the question of how much priority (and teaching time) should be given to footwork within those 25 odd weekly classes, as against other elements of the dance.

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    For the sake of discussion, I'd take it as a given they are serious about learning within the bounds of the limited time/limited resources and level of ability.

    Taking the six month example it brings up the question of how much priority (and teaching time) should be given to footwork within those 25 odd weekly classes, as against other elements of the dance.
    Well now. Completely off the top of my head. This one depends entirely on the students... but possibly the best way to learn in this environment would be to spend the first few weeks doing nothing but footwork and connection exercises, slowly building up those up as the students improved, then combining them... finally building on those foundations with moves. This is an over-simplified description, but you should get the idea.

    I don't know how long that progression would take - although it would probably depend a lot on the students - but if you did, say, the first ten weeks on footwork, connection and general technique, I think you'd end up with some pretty impressive results for most people.

    Of course you couldn't possibly run social dance classes like that, as it misses out one of the most crucial ingredients - the ability to enjoy social dancing from a very early stage - and you'd probably lose all your students in very short space of time. Someone would have to be incredibly focussed and motivated to learn this way.

    I would, however, be intrigued to know whether it would be as effective a learning route as I'd expect it to be...

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    Re: WCS footwork - how important is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Well now. Completely off the top of my head. This one depends entirely on the students... but possibly the best way to learn in this environment would be to spend the first few weeks doing nothing but footwork and connection exercises, slowly building up those up as the students improved, then combining them... finally building on those foundations with moves. This is an over-simplified description, but you should get the idea.

    I don't know how long that progression would take - although it would probably depend a lot on the students - but if you did, say, the first ten weeks on footwork, connection and general technique, I think you'd end up with some pretty impressive results for most people.

    Of course you couldn't possibly run social dance classes like that, as it misses out one of the most crucial ingredients - the ability to enjoy social dancing from a very early stage - and you'd probably lose all your students in very short space of time. Someone would have to be incredibly focussed and motivated to learn this way.

    I would, however, be intrigued to know whether it would be as effective a learning route as I'd expect it to be...


    That sums up my thoughts exactly as well. If I knew I had a bunch of highly motivated and patient students for a fixed period of time I'd probably do the same thing.

    As you say though, the real world doesn't work that way so we can't always teach the way we'd like.

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