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Thread: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

  1. #41
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    It's still the premier weekender venue and the event is certainly establishing its own identity against the JA Southports (you don't hear the phrase Cerocport too much nowadays), for some people that's a good thing, for others less so.
    I think it established its own identity first time around.

    It was always distinctly different, just not in a good way.

    Ceroc have used the intervening time to minimise the differences with other Ceroc weekenders, rather than concerning themselves in making the comparison more flattering.

    And they've done so very successfully. Aside from the location and venue layout very little now separates the major Ceroc weekenders.

    Which is probably a good commercial idea if the venue is going to vanish.

  2. #42
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyred View Post
    This is true jivecat, but the alternative would be to raise the lights and I don't think anyone would really like to see that room in great detail. It would definitely have killed the mood in there.

    I am not quite sure that the use of cabeceo would quite work in the environment anyway, and people tended to just come over and ask in a traditional jive way.
    Even if it is too dark for cabaceo ladies may follow tango customs by not asking, even if the leaders ask in the traditional jive way.

  3. #43
    Senior Member rubyred's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Razzle View Post
    why force yourself to wait to be asked just for some old fassioned rule!? Its not argentina and I bet most of the leads dont exercise the traditions in thier local milongas. Ive never come across anyone enforcing cabeceo dispite having travelled to quite a few areas!
    I agree I am not sitting around waiting to be asked and running the risk of not having a dance all night. But having said that I do believe you can use the cabeceo to your best advantage, really depends on where you are, but I think it can work, I just don't rely on it all the timeand don't feel uncomfortable about asking anymore.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member rubyred's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Even if it is too dark for cabaceo ladies may follow tango customs by not asking, even if the leaders ask in the traditional jive way.
    Yes they might, but the more I think about it I think that we exercise a form of cabaceo in all kinds of dancing to get asked for a dance. For example in jive we look around the room and try to catch someone's eye , and we may at other times look away and even move out of the way if we see someone coming towards us that we don't want to dance with. Also we put ourselves to the front of where we could get asked for a dance, making it clear that if we are asked we will say yes, and not stay in a corner if we are seriously trying to avoid getting a dance. So the old cabaceo is certainly around without some of us even thinking about it. I just think that followers should not feel or be made to feel uncomfortable if they ask for a dance in the UK.
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  5. #45
    Registered User Battlecat's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyred View Post
    Yes they might, but the more I think about it I think that we exercise a form of cabaceo in all kinds of dancing to get asked for a dance. For example in jive we look around the room and try to catch someone's eye , and we may at other times look away and even move out of the way if we see someone coming towards us that we don't want to dance with. Also we put ourselves to the front of where we could get asked for a dance, making it clear that if we are asked we will say yes, and not stay in a corner if we are seriously trying to avoid getting a dance. So the old cabaceo is certainly around without some of us even thinking about it. I just think that followers should not feel or be made to feel uncomfortable if they ask for a dance in the UK.
    In the room at southport, there are also many people there who do not dance AT and are there to watch the dancing, so you tend to rely on recognising someone who you know dances AT and then asking them, rather than waiting for a man to ask you. Plus it is a time when people who have just attended a couple of workshops come in to practise what they have learnt so is more like a practica than a milonga. I agree that in MJ we do use our eyes to get a dance, but in a less structured way to tango and that is why I find it less intimidating at the Southport Milongas than a AT milonga or ball.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Interesting if Tango mores, where followers don't ask, matter at a Ceroc weekender.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Razzle View Post
    why force yourself to wait to be asked just for some old fassioned rule!?
    Sorry, I didn't make myself at all clear.
    I'm not afraid to ask but .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Battlecat View Post
    In the room at southport, there are also many people there who do not dance AT and are there to watch the dancing, so you tend to rely on recognising someone who you know dances AT and then asking them, rather than waiting for a man to ask you. Plus it is a time when people who have just attended a couple of workshops come in to practise what they have learnt so is more like a practica than a milonga.
    ...all the above, plus..

    although there was no cabaceo culture at the weekend, most couples did stay dancing for 2/3/4 maybe more tracks. Plus, as ever, there was women over.
    So, even if you'd managed to establish, 'who' could Tango (by watching the floor) and set your goal to ask them. It might work out they had 'other' plans? Other women they'd already promised? Or the need to take a break? Or just want to continue dancing with the same person?

    And I fully admit, I'm not great at sitting out, not great at playing the 'racing game', not great at refusals (not cos I take offence, just cos I've wasted my time) and not very patient!

    Its nobody's fault and there's nothing that can be done about it (is there ) I was merely stating a fact
    Last edited by Lory; 20th-October-2010 at 10:59 PM.
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    I really enjoyed my weekend at Southport. Great to catch up with people I haven't seen for such a long time and of course meet new friends.

    Finaaly sussed out how to do a weekend without getting totally knackered, that sleep after tea does wonders for your stamina.

    I got totally drunk on Friday night so apologies to anyone I might have danced with and of course to those who might have been offended by my unique sense of humour .... especially the Scottish teachers who have now seen me in a different light!

    I ventured into the main room for a few dances but as usual didn't stay too long, I'm afraid I don't really relax much in the main room as I am constantly looking out for other who are less aware of anyone else on the dancefloor but the dances I had were very enjoyable.

    The afternoon sessions were superb, the ultimate highlight for me having to be Vince's set on Sunday afternoon .... please do consider coming to Scotland, London is just so far and of course you'll build an even bigger fan base if you make that effort.

    Sheena in the WCS room was superb, again the music was right up my street but with the very limited knowlege of WCS I have, I even bored myself and slipped right back into my regular jive and had a ball.

    Our chalet was great this time, clean and warm a vast improvement on the last couple of times I've been and it was nice to see the painters as well as the cleaners on Monday so I hope the standard is kept up even if it is only for one more year.

    Thanks to everyone who made the weekend so memorable .... well most of it anyway.

  8. #48
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    OK here's a few thoughts from me...

    I adopted the sleeping pattern of going to bed early in the evening, getting 5 or 6 hours' sleep, then going out in the early hours of the morning. Then a nap and another spell of dancing in the afternoon.

    It seemed to work pretty well, and fitted in with me having to get up early for work on Friday morning anyway, but it did mean I missed some people and also more of the main room dancing than I'd have liked. But it also meant I missed the cabaret and didn't do any classes, so can't really comment on those elements. But it crucially meant that after a nap on Monday morning I'd had 6-7 hours sleep to drive home on, which was good...

    Good
    Chalet - I got fairly lucky in that it wasn't too dirty, had a shower that got hot and (miraculously, 'cos it was on the ground floor) had a phone signal. I could just see the "ria" of "Queen Victoria" so not too far from the venue either.

    Had some good dances with folk in the "Pod"

    Lots of dances on Sunday afternoon - I can't remember it being so popular during the day - it was packed. I have a suspicion that the weather encouraged this - maybe a bit too chilly to have a Barbeque and play on Spacehoppers (so people went dancing instead) but still a nice day, sunny and warm enough to dance outside.

    Saturday afternoon sunshine - it was pretty warm for mid-October.

    Venue layout - no change from the last one, but I like it, and we'll miss it if and when they flatten the place.

    Lots of good music and good dances; and a few really special ones.

    Bad
    After the discussion on another thread about people bringing cameras, it was noticeable to me that I didn't see the Cerocpix folk at all for the entire weekend. Fair enough that they weren't there when I came out in the early hours of the mornings, but I also danced for several hours on both afternoons when it was sunny and there were photo opportunities aplenty and still didn't see them,


    Overall I had another really good time.

    I'm still in two minds about 'Swinger's Hour' (aka 'Vivien of Holloway 90 minutes' ). The dresses look fab, but I'm afraid the music doesn't particularly move me.
    Love dance, will travel

  9. #49
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    although there was no cabaceo culture at the weekend, most couples did stay dancing for 2/3/4 maybe more tracks. Plus, as ever, there was women over ...
    Sounds like it has got better or worse (depending on your viewpoint) nowadays, despite overall gender balance.

  10. #50
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Sounds like it has got better or worse (depending on your viewpoint) nowadays, despite overall gender balance.
    Yes, I think its just an issue that more women on the MJ scene can follow Tango, than men that can lead it. Not an general issue with gender imbalance
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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Pants View Post

    Thanks to everyone who made the weekend so memorable .... well most of it anyway.
    You were hilarious on the Friday, such a shame you can’t remember it

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Razzle View Post
    why force yourself to wait to be asked just for some old fassioned rule!? Its not argentina and I bet most of the leads dont exercise the traditions in thier local milongas. Ive never come across anyone enforcing cabeceo dispite having travelled to quite a few areas!
    I’d forgotten about the Tango element. I must say I found that room very intimidating. I only went on the Saturday night stayed for about ½ hour. I danced with a couple of guys that were more of a beginner than me. I find the 3 dances a bit of a problem in as much as no one seems to come of the floor. I did not feel confident enough in my own tango (still very much a beginner) to ask and then got fed up of sitting around so went back to the blues room and danced!!!

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyred View Post
    This is true jivecat, but the alternative would be to raise the lights and I don't think anyone would really like to see that room in great detail. It would definitely have killed the mood in there.
    I agree - I don't like using the cabaceo in any formal way and wasn't trying to advocate it at all, just saying it wouldn't be practicable anyway. It suits me to have the rooms as dark as possible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    And I fully admit, I'm not great at sitting out, not great at playing the 'racing game', not great at refusals (not cos I take offence, just cos I've wasted my time) and not very patient!
    Sounds good to me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Battlecat
    I find it less intimidating at the Southport Milongas than a AT milonga or ball.
    Definitely. It's good to have the complete freedom to just directly ask without feeling that there'll be some sort of judgement. Assuming you can find someone to ask in the first place.

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    From the amount of PM's I have received this person is well known by the followers and they are making their own stands by keeping well clear of him.
    It does make me wonder why they are doing their complaining to you and not directly to him. If every follower who had a problem either said no to him, and why, or explicitly stated that they didn't want to be hurt, then there might be some chance of sorting the situation out.

    I spoke with the young Lady and gave her my peice of advice, I am not known as a confrontational character maybe I need to confront my own demons and make a stand if I see this rough type of leading.
    The young lady is the one who needs to be the confrontational character. Unless this man hears complaints directly from his followers he is unlikely to believe that he has a problem, anyway.

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    It does make me wonder why they are doing their complaining to you and not directly to him. If every follower who had a problem either said no to him, and why, or explicitly stated that they didn't want to be hurt, then there might be some chance of sorting the situation out.
    Unfortunately, many followers - by no means all, thankfully - will not say anything in this situation. Whether this is for fear of (ironically) hurting the leader's feelings, or for other reasons, is hard to determine.

    This thread reminds me of an incident some years ago when a (not so) gentleman wrenched the backs of two friends of mine in the same evening by leading a 'backbreaker' drop on them, and getting it wrong. Not only did they not want to tell him what he'd done, but they refused to tell me who he was, in case I was minded to speak to him.

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    although there was no cabaceo culture at the weekend, most couples did stay dancing for 2/3/4 maybe more tracks.
    Was the music mainly traditional or neo? If it was neo, then 3-4 tracks is a long time - 12-15 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Its nobody's fault and there's nothing that can be done about it (is there ) I was merely stating a fact
    To be honest, I'm surprised people weren't queuing up to dance AT with you - I'd imagine you're more advanced than most AT dancers at a Ceroc weekender.

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I’d forgotten about the Tango element. I must say I found that room very intimidating.
    Ah. I recommend going on a workshop

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Unfortunately, many followers - by no means all, thankfully - will not say anything in this situation. Whether this is for fear of (ironically) hurting the leader's feelings, or for other reasons, is hard to determine..........

    Not only did they not want to tell him what he'd done, but they refused to tell me who he was, in case I was minded to speak to him.
    What i'm trying to say is, followers need to be direct. I know they find it difficult -so do I - but is IMO the best way of dealing with the problem. Much more effective than passing the problem over to another bloke to deal with. I don't think followers should be encouraged to be passive in this respect.

    If all else fails, an involuntary squeal of pain or a melodramatic wince could help get the message across without a direct confontation. But complaining to everyone else but not the perpetrator - what good is that? It only creates an atmosphere without addressing the problem at all.

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    I agree, if one person makes a remark (complains) he might assume that 'they' are doing it wrong. If everyone remarks on it, he would surely get the message that he's the one getting it wrong.

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    Re: Southport Oct 10- The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Ah. I recommend going on a workshop
    You're not suggesting I go all the way to Brighton are you?

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