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Thread: Is it me...

  1. #81
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    If the weight was transferred fully from one foot to the other, at the speed of the steps and triples in WCS, then the upper torso would be wobbling back and forth.
    I am sorry Gadget but you are wrong

    In WCS you are taught to walk by pushing through all of your foot, by doing this you ensure that you are not pulsing up and down, if you do it incorrrectly like me then you will have a pulse .

    When you watch the best WCS dancers they are able to articulate through the foot which ensure that there dance is very smooth unless they want to highlight some part of the music and then you may see lots of different things happening.

    All the best followers that i have danced with are exceptionally smooth and enjoyable to dance with.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Gadget...
    1) You are contradicting yourself nicely here. The following statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    If the weight was transferred fully from one foot to the other, at the speed of the steps and triples in WCS, then the upper torso would be wobbling back and forth.
    Does not exactly go with your reply to my own assertion...
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Admittedly it's near-impossible to tell just from watching YouTube, but I can happily reassure you that it's perfectly possible to get that smooth movement while fully committing your weight on each step. It's simply a matter of technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I know it is perfectly possible - it's what's done in AT. I'm far more impressed with the precision and placement in that dance than the shuffling, skipping I see in WCS. But that's my personal opinion.
    Although I should perhaps make this clearer. I was not talking about AT. I was talking, as should have been abundantly clear from the context, about doing proper 6 or eight count triple-step footwork where very single step involves full commitment of weight.

    To take this a little further - I've done workshops and private lessons on this with some top-level teachers both in the UK and abroad. In earlier times I've been specifically corrected by said teachers when I 'shuffled' my way through my triples instead of doing that weight transfer.

    So based on that, I will restate. It is perfectly possible to get that smooth movement in triple-step footwork while fully committing your weight on each step. It's simply a matter of technique.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    (And my torso wobbles more than most! )
    There are people who love your wobbly bits

  4. #84
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I know it is perfectly possible - it's what's done in AT. I'm far more impressed with the precision and placement in that dance than the shuffling, skipping I see in WCS. But that's my personal opinion.
    Well, of course - AT is clearly superior in every respect than some shoddy swing dance.

    Or, possibly, not.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, of course - AT is clearly superior in every respect than some shoddy swing dance.
    AHEM! How dare you call WCS a swing dance?


    Oh look... is that the time... I'll get my coat then...

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Much like being so far away from something means you can't properly distinguish between different objects?.
    Not really.

    One is having not enough detail and one is having too much detail. Quite different.

    I get the impression that Caro and yourself are so close to the detail, that you consider everything key, and cannot let anything go.

    Which is a pity. I'd like to know how you would order things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I am banging my head because if you don't think timing, anchoring and footwork are key differences between the dances, even after NZM's generous explanations (that man has the patient of a Saint ), you either have achieved an understanding of both dances neither of us has, or haven't got a clue what WCS is about.
    Quite apart from anything else, suggesting I haven't a clue about the dance is completely missing the point.

    I'm not suggesting timing, anchoring and footwork don't matter. Just that they matter less.

    Some things do in fact matter more than others !

  7. #87
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Question Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I look forward to that, as like Gerry, I'm not particularly satisfied with your answers. In particular with the lack of any arguments to really back them up apart from.....
    It is really quite simple. This thread started talking about comingling parts of west coast swing and jive.


    So take this thought exercise:

    A couple start a dance as slotted jive (implying no more than jive but danced in a slot)

    They end a dance as West Coast Swing (with anchoring, playing, lady moving to the end of the slot on her own accord, standard as possible west coast swing footwork etc.)



    Assuming a gradual transition at what point does the dance become WCS ?


    As a lead I consider the dance style to be west coast swing, once the lady starts moving to the end of the slot of her own accord.

    Even if the lady doesn't anchor, play, use triple steps, use WCS timing, it still feels more like WCS to me.

    Yes it would feel better if the follower did these other things, but the big transition point for me is the lady moving to the end of the slot.




    When do YOU consider the dance becomes WCS (ordering the transitions as you like) ?

    Are they only dancing west coast swing right at the end when every 't' has been crossed and every 'i' dotted ?

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    Re: Is it me...



    Seriously people When does MJ become WCS? It's been answered many atime in this thread by people who know what they are talking about and should be listened to ( Caro, NZ Monkey, Gerry etc)

    When does Tango become tango if you dance Salsa??? it's 2 seperate dances.

    The only reason MJ and WCS are similar is that MJ can be the same as any dance !!!! Thats the nature of it.

    I don't know who this is but when does MJ become tango if you dance it like this? (OK I don't know much about Tango but I do know one set of Ochoes does not make a tango dance before DB comments ) Infact whats Jango all about then.

    What about Salsa? when does MJ become salsa?


    And blues? ???


    My point being this, Modern Jive is not a pure dance form like any other dance forms out there. Modern Jive is what ever you want it to be.

    When you start putting elements of other dances in to the randomness that is the structure of MJ, you don't suddenly dance 'that dance'.

    Going to put my neck on the line and post this skip the first min of the argument about song choice . Not the greatest bit of dancing I have ever done but one of the few bit I have on film.

    This is me doing Jive slotted. Before I had even done 1 WCS class. I had alot of people around that time thinking I was dancing WCS. Just because I danced in a slot and didn't catapult, yet those who can WCS will spot within the first bar of music that it is not WCS.


    If you still can't tell the difference between WCS and MJ, then get to a WCS class.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo
    I get the impression that Caro and yourself are so close to the detail, that you consider everything key, and cannot let anything go.

    Which is a pity.
    Caro and I get the impression that you don't know what you're talking about and not willing to accept that. Which is also a pity.


    Quote Originally Posted by frodo


    So take this thought exercise:

    A couple start a dance as slotted jive (implying no more than jive but danced in a slot)

    They end a dance as West Coast Swing (with anchoring, playing, lady moving to the end of the slot on her own accord, standard as possible west coast swing footwork etc.)


    Assuming a gradual transition at what point does the dance become WCS ?

    ...sniped for comment later....

    When do YOU consider the dance becomes WCS (ordering the transitions as you like) ?

    Are they only dancing west coast swing right at the end when every 't' has been crossed and every 'i' dotted ?
    Fine, I'll play.

    I would consider them to be dancing WCS when:
    • The follower is maintaining a slot.
    • The follower hunts for the end of the slot on her own (after the pattern has been initiated by the leader).
    • An anchour step lasting two beats is used to terminate the patterns in a leveraged position.
    • The dance is underpinned by 6 and 8 count patterns, with timing based on the passes, whip and sugar push.
    That to me is an absolute minimum, and is in no particular order. If any of those points are missing it isn't WCS as far as I'm concerned*.

    However, I have issues with your statements here:
    As a lead I consider the dance style to be west coast swing, once the lady starts moving to the end of the slot of her own accord.

    Even if the lady doesn't anchor, play, use triple steps, use WCS timing, it still feels more like WCS to me.
    Your first point is one of the criteria I'd use as well, but only one of them. You seem to consider it to be the only important criteria. Secondly, just because a dance may feel more like WCS to you than MJ does not make it so. Driving a minicab feels more like driving a Ferrari than driving a tank does, but that's a far cry from the minicab being a Ferrari.

    I think the assumption you're making is that in this thought experiment is that there is an identifiable line where one dance becomes the other. I propose that there would be a grey area where the dancers are not identifiably dancing either form. I also expect it'd look very disconnected and messy as nobody would be quite sure of what's expected of them for a period.


    *There are specific exceptions such as touch-and-go's, extensions and the follower rejecting invitational leads, but as you accuse me of being too close to the detail I'll let that all slide for you

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Are they only dancing west coast swing right at the end when every 't' has been crossed and every 'i' dotted ?
    You could say they were dancing WCS from the start, just very very badly.

    Excersise for you now and I bet you can't do it.

    You know those people that get up at weddings and turn each other under the arms (return fashion) even though they have never danced Modern Jive in their life this kind of this (between the 0:22 and 0:45 mark)

    When does that beome Modern Jive?

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    For the record, we're about to start a long weekend here and I'll be flying to Wellington shortly to attend a bunch of workshops and private lessons with Jordan and Tatiana. Woooohooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

    That does mean I'll be disappearing from the thread for while though as I won't be back to my computer until Tuesday.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I would consider them to be dancing WCS when:
    • The follower is maintaining a slot.
    • The follower hunts for the end of the slot on her own (after the pattern has been initiated by the leader).
    • An anchour step lasting two beats is used to terminate the patterns in a leveraged position.
    • The dance is underpinned by 6 and 8 count patterns, with timing based on the passes, whip and sugar push.
    That to me is an absolute minimum, and is in no particular order. If any of those points are missing it isn't WCS as far as I'm concerned*.

    However, I have issues with your statements here: Your first point is one of the criteria I'd use as well, but only one of them. You seem to consider it to be the only important criteria. Secondly, just because a dance may feel more like WCS to you than MJ does not make it so.
    ...
    I think the assumption you're making is that in this thought experiment is that there is an identifiable line where one dance becomes the other. I propose that there would be a grey area where the dancers are not identifiably dancing either form. I also expect it'd look very disconnected and messy as nobody would be quite sure of what's expected of them for a period.
    exactly. For a while the dance would be neither - as you start following rules that belong to only one dance (and hence conflict with the other), it'll just be very messy - if you try leading me in MJ and I am dancing WCS, we'll both be very frustrated because lead and follow will not work.

  13. #93
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I don't know who this is but when does MJ become tango if you dance it like this?
    Never.

    It's not even very good MJ.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    If the weight was transferred fully from one foot to the other, at the speed of the steps and triples in WCS, then the upper torso would be wobbling back and forth.
    Not if you soften/bend your knees!!!

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post


    Seriously people When does MJ become WCS? It's been answered many atime in this thread by people who know what they are talking about and should be listened to ( Caro, NZ Monkey, Gerry etc)
    As much as I listen to their advice, I prefer to listen to the world's best if they contradict as obviously they are doing something right.

    Not to say the above arn't right at times.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    As much as I listen to their advice, I prefer to listen to the world's best if they contradict as obviously they are doing something right.
    What would make you think that we'd ever think of contradicting the best out there ?
    NZM and I both got pretty much all we know about wcs and have posted on here from J&T

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    As much as I listen to their advice, I prefer to listen to the world's best if they contradict as obviously they are doing something right.

    Not to say the above arn't right at times.
    They are right alot.

    There are a few people to trust in what they say on this forum when it comes to WCS. MikeyR, Caro, NZ Monkey, Gerry and Hopefully myself ahould all be listened too, even if we are not right 100% of the time.

    There are others who post about WCS (and in some cases Jive) that should really be taken with a pinch of salt.

    Anyway, if you have a WCS question, who are you going to ask about it? It can only be use Westies on here unless you have a direct contact route to "The Best"

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post

    Going to put my neck on the line and post this skip the first min of the argument about song choice . Not the greatest bit of dancing I have ever done but one of the few bit I have on film.

    This is me doing Jive slotted. Before I had even done 1 WCS class. I had alot of people around that time thinking I was dancing WCS. Just because I danced in a slot and didn't catapult, yet those who can WCS will spot within the first bar of music that it is not WCS.

    A fine example of some slotted jive and quite clearly de-bunks the "she makes her way to the end of the slot" argument. It seems quite clear to me that in Lee's example, his partner (once led) makes her way to the other end of the slot, unless he blocks it or redirects her, much in the same way that he would if he were dancing WCS, but it IS still MJ. What also notable (and very good) is that when she gets to the end, she waits there (anchored if you like) until he moves her again, but it's still not WCS and is still MJ.

    It's been mentioned so many times in this thread that MJ takes on characteristics, moves and patterns from pretty much every other partner dance, so it's not surprising those who dance MJ slotted will have a WCS-ish look, but that's all it is - a style of dancing, not a different dance.

  19. #99
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    :When does Tango become tango if you dance Salsa??? it's 2 seperate dances.
    They are, but most importantly they are two separate dances with little in common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    :The only reason MJ and WCS are similar is that MJ can be the same as any dance !!!! Thats the nature of it.
    I don't agree with this.

    One reason is that Modern Jive requires very little prior knowledge by the follower. Therefore it is hard to say it is the same as something something that requires particular knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    :What about Salsa? when does MJ become salsa?
    As discussed earlier, I don't think it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    :And blues? ???
    Sorry, don't know enough about blues to comment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    :My point being this, Modern Jive is not a pure dance form like any other dance forms out there. Modern Jive is what ever you want it to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    :When you start putting elements of other dances in to the randomness that is the structure of MJ, you don't suddenly dance 'that dance'.
    Depending on which elements, how many and their importance, it crosses over at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    :
    Going to put my neck on the line and post this skip the first min of the argument about song choice . Not the greatest bit of dancing I have ever done but one of the few bit I have on film.

    This is me doing Jive slotted. Before I had even done 1 WCS class. I had alot of people around that time thinking I was dancing WCS. Just because I danced in a slot and didn't catapult, yet those who can WCS will spot within the first bar of music that it is not WCS.
    Looking at the first part, it is a good clip for discussion purposes.

    I think it is the follower that matters more here in making it look more like WCS than jive (and hence her background would be interesting).

    I'd be surprised if the follower would have much difficulty in following WCS.

  20. #100
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    You know those people that get up at weddings and turn each other under the arms (return fashion) even though they have never danced Modern Jive in their life this kind of this (between the 0:22 and 0:45 mark)
    It isn't exclusively modern jive (in that I'm sure there are other named dances the simple moves could be interpreted as)

    I doubt you would say they were dancing something else if you saw them on the a Ceroc dance floor, for that period.

    The follower clearly doesn't need prior knowledge here, which is fairly compatible with modern jive.

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