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Thread: Is it me...

  1. #21
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    For those who are having problems with the up and down thing, for dancing all dances except the waltz beats are numbered and come in sets of 8, when counting music the downbeats are the odd beats (counts 1, 3, 5 and 7) and the upbeats are the even beats (counts 2, 4, 6 and 8).
    You mean - as in the ?

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    You mean - as in the ?
    Of course they do need to be moving their feet.

    When you watch them actually move their feet the women are mostly stepping right on the 1 - the down beat.

    p.s. Forgotten this is a modern jive forum?

    p.p.s. Except when I ask about fixing gaps in my blog - which still aren't fixed

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Of course they do need to be moving their feet.

    When you watch them actually move their feet the women are mostly stepping right on the 1 - the down beat.
    Perhaps I should draw your attention to the time signature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    p.s. Forgotten this is a modern jive forum?
    As I was replying to a message which makes a sweeping statement about 'all dances except the waltz', I'm not sure I see the relevance of this question....

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Perhaps I should draw your attention to the time signature.
    Opps! I was distracted by the gaps between my buttons

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    But what is the definition of timing within a dance? I'd hazard a guess that it was linked to the footwork of the basic
    The difficulty here is the footwork isn't of great importance in either dance.

    For me it feels very different dancing MJ from dancing WCS, even if the look and the shapes have similarities.
    Doesn't the feel here depend on what the follower is doing.

    If she is doing things unled (particularly trying to get to the end of the slot), it feels like WCS.

  6. #26
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Perhaps I should draw your attention to the time signature.

    As I was replying to a message which makes a sweeping statement about 'all dances except the waltz', I'm not sure I see the relevance of this question....
    Being choreographed - is it really relevant.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The difficulty here is the footwork isn't of great importance in either dance.
    There are a lot of ways to vary the basic footwork patterns in WCS, but they are the basic footwork patterns for a reason. I think the footwork patterns in WCS basics are very important, if only for the fact that they help you learn how to move - which makes throwing them all out the window later while maintaining the same feel considerably easier.

    In the context of Rob's statement though, there are a lot of instances in WCS where redirection of the followers occurs between beats, rather than on them as is much more common in MJ. This is for example, why whips have a triple step in the middle for the followers.

    If you lead a whip in MJ with exactly the same timing as in WCS, you'll end up with 95% of the girls you try it on being pulled off balance. You can lead similar moves successfully in MJ, but the timing virtually always needs to be adjusted to do so.

    Doesn't the feel here depend on what the follower is doing.
    It depends on what both people are doing. In particular, it depends on which dance they're doing, and how good at it they are.

    For a more concrete argument though, consider the increase in tension in the connection. In MJ we rock-step away from each other to get to that maximum stretch coming back together in an accordion motion. This rock step takes us a single beat in the music (from the "push your partner back" compression stage to the "bring her forward" stage).

    In WCS on the other hand, we take two whole beats (twice as much time) to go from the point of lowest tension in our connection to the highest point before we bring our partner forward, and even then the follower hangs back a fraction more, adding to the elastic feel and potentially even slipping a fraction behind the beat at that point. In the basics at least, there is no push back to get her there either, and it's understood that her role as a follower is to keep trying to find the end of that slot until directed otherwise.

    All that adds up to a very different feel, even if, as Rob says, there are similarities in shape and style. I know that it also affects the way I lead certain moves.

    If she is doing things unled (particularly trying to get to the end of the slot), it feels like WCS.
    As opposed to not following at all, in which case it's more likely to be MJ?

    Joking aside, the clear structure behind WCS allows for the girls to play a lot more without having to worry about missing a lead. Once they've hit the post for instance, they can be confident that they've got two beats that are free for them to play with as long as they're connected and ready to go by the end of it. Similarly, virtually every pattern starts with a walk-walk for her, which gives ample opportunities to play as long as she can keep her distancing right and be on the correct foot at the end of it.

    The really good followers can even play with the more complicated stuff in the middle without missing a lead or messing their partner up, or moving off the "wrong foot" and still follow without messing up the lead.

    I suspect that in most cases trying to play that much in MJ would result in a train wreck. At the very least, I think MJ is much less forgiving of followers adding their own variations than WCS is.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    .......If she is doing things unled (particularly trying to get to the end of the slot), it feels like WCS.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey
    Once they've hit the post for instance, they can be confident that they've got two beats that are free for them to play with as long as they're connected and ready to go by the end of it.
    It's those TWO beats that make all the difference, they are not in Modern Jive. They are at the END of the slot, many Modern Jive leads are not aware of them and PULL the follower back too quickly. If the MJ lead lets the follower "do her stuff" that will possibly put him off and may mess up his timing.

    In WCS it is as NZ Monkey has said above ".........are free for them to play with as long as they're connected and ready to go by the end of it"


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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Being choreographed - is it really relevant.
    Yes

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    Re: Is it me...

    Timing over 8 bars (normal 4/4 time)

    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

    Counting up&down beats

    D U D U D U D U

    As a standard MJ Count

    1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

    As a WCS 6 count

    1 2 3&4 5&6 - -

    As a WCS 6 Count

    1 2 3&4 5&6 7 8


    Then of course you can have extentions to these timings.

    WCS and Jive will look similar to people who do not have a great knowledge of either dance, just like F1 racing will look like F3000 to those who don't have the knowledge to spot the differences


    With regards to Waltz timing thats norm 1 up beat and 2 down beats

    Sometimes somgs are played that are not really within these rules but they can still be danced too (both jive and WCS) this is one example that gets played alot

  11. #31
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ...Snip details explanation..
    An impressive and useful explanation. I cannot however help feeling it is a collection of small items with no key difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    It's those TWO beats that make all the difference...

    In WCS it is as NZ Monkey has said above ".........are free for them to play with as long as they're connected and ready to go by the end of it"
    I think this one in paricular doesn't stand on its own, in terms of the ability for the follower to play. Playing is not fundamental.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    An impressive and useful explanation. I cannot however help feeling it is a collection of small items with no key difference.

    I think this one in paricular doesn't stand on its own, in terms of the ability for the follower to play. Playing is not fundamental.
    I am confused

    Can a Westie expert please explain to Mr. frodo as I seem to have confused him.

    As far as I understand, the extra two beats are in the music they are not extra in the dance for playtime, the follower can use them as steps or their own interpretation as NZ Monkey explained.


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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    An impressive and useful explanation. I cannot however help feeling it is a collection of small items with no key difference.
    First of all, there are a lot more differences between the two than just those two examples I posted. I just don't have the energy to write the dissertation that would be required to cover them all.

    Secondly, if you see the examples I did write about as "small items with no key differences" then there would be little reason to write it anyway. To put it delicately, if you can't appreciate how significant those differences are then I don't think you have enough understanding of the way either dance works to make a meaningful comparison.

    With that in mind, perhaps you might like to consider that virtually every westie on the forum considers MJ and WCS to be fundamentally different, even though it's possible bring some of the flavour of WCS into MJ. If they don't know what they're talking about, then who would?


    I think this one in paricular doesn't stand on its own, in terms of the ability for the follower to play. Playing is not fundamental.
    The follower playing is not necessary in any dance form, but it is encouraged in WCS and very engrained in its culture.... to the betterment of the dance IMHO.

    The purpose of the anchour step is not for the follower to play, but to settle after the previous pattern and ensure a good connection before continuing to the next pattern.

    That said, it guarantees a safe time for followers to play if they choose, as long as they also do whatever they need to do to develop that connection again. I cannot understand how you do not think that this guarantee doesn't improve the followers ability to play.

    Taking a step away from the anchour step though, followers can also quite safely play with the first two beats of the pattern as well, as they are highly predictable. This is not something that you can say with the same degree of certainty in MJ.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    .... even though it's possible bring some of the flavour of WCS into MJ.
    I think that's the original point of the thread summed up .

  15. #35
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    First of all, there are a lot more differences between the two than just those two examples I posted. I just don't have the energy to write the dissertation that would be required to cover them all.
    Absolutely there may be lots more little differences - but that won't add any more key differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Secondly, if you see the examples I did write about as "small items with no key differences" then there would be little reason to write it anyway. To put it delicately, if you can't appreciate how significant those differences are then I don't think you have enough understanding of the way either dance works to make a meaningful comparison.

    With that in mind, perhaps you might like to consider that virtually every westie on the forum considers MJ and WCS to be fundamentally different, even though it's possible bring some of the flavour of WCS into MJ. If they don't know what they're talking about, then who would?
    I agree it generally feels different (when danced with a reasonable follower), but if they cannot put their finger on why it is fundamentally different, I'm not sure it matters what they consider.


    I agree they are fundamentally difference in any case.

    I've just yet to be convinced they are fundamentally different for the reasons given - such as footwork/timing/anchors/playing. Hence my challenge to those comments.


    The follower playing is not necessary in any dance form, but it is encouraged in WCS and very engrained in its culture.... to the betterment of the dance IMHO.
    It has its plus points, especially in terms of variety, but usually modern jivers who play know enough to do it well. I reckon the lead gets interfered with far more in WCS.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Absolutely there may be lots more little differences - but that won't add any more key differences.
    "Little" is your word, not mine. I consider them to be considerably more significant.


    I agree it generally feels different (when danced with a reasonable follower), but if they cannot put their finger on why it is fundamentally different, I'm not sure it matters what they consider.
    And I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

    I think you're trying to say that if the follower thinks they've been dancing WCS with Robd when in fact it was MJ, then it should be considered WCS even though Rob was leading differently and it felt nothing like that to him..... but please correct me if I'm wrong here.

    Or perhaps you mean that if the follower can't tell you why there's a difference between the two then it's only because they don't know any better, in which case I'd agree with you. I'm genuinely confused as to your meaning in any event.

    I agree they are fundamentally difference in any case.

    I've just yet to be convinced they are fundamentally different for the reasons given - such as footwork/timing/anchors/playing. Hence my challenge to those comments.
    I think you and I probably have very different interpretations of the word "fundamentally" then.

    Would you perhaps care to elaborate on what you consider the fundamental differences between MJ and WCS for us?

    It has its plus points, especially in terms of variety, but usually modern jivers who play know enough to do it well. I reckon the lead gets interfered with far more in WCS.
    I won't argue with your experiences, because I can't possibly know what they are. They're the opposite of mine though and I doubt we’ll come to an agreement on this point.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    "Little" is your word, not mine. I consider them to be considerably more significant.
    True, my words. I'm sure at a high level relatively smaller aspects assume greater significance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    And I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

    I think you're trying to say that if the follower thinks they've been dancing WCS with Robd when in fact it was MJ, then it should be considered WCS even though Rob was leading differently and it felt nothing like that to him..... but please correct me if I'm wrong here.

    Or perhaps you mean that if the follower can't tell you why there's a difference between the two then it's only because they don't know any better, in which case I'd agree with you. I'm genuinely confused as to your meaning in any event.
    Nothing like that. The bit you're quoting is in response to your remarks on westies opinons - it isn't about the dance as such.


    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Would you perhaps care to elaborate on what you consider the fundamental differences between MJ and WCS for us ?
    Timing, anchoring, footwork etc. None of them on their own seem to fundamentally divide WCS from jive.

    As mentioned before the lady doing stuff (not specifically led) seems to. Specifically attempting to get to the end of the slot.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Specifically attempting to get to the end of the slot.
    This point goes to the heart of the thread and I couldn't disagree with you more.

    MJ is an evolving dance and WCS has had an influence with many dancing a slotted style that works on the principal that the follower once moved, keeps moving in the same direction until re-directed or reaching the end of the leads arm (i.e. the end of the slot).

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    Re: Is it me...

    [QUOTE=NZ Monkey;580557
    Would you perhaps care to elaborate on what you consider the fundamental differences between MJ and WCS for us?
    [/QUOTE]

    Frodo
    Could you please answer NZ Monkeys question as the following quote really doesn't elaborate enough

    "Timing, anchoring, footwork etc."

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    It has its plus points, especially in terms of variety, but usually modern jivers who play know enough to do it well. I reckon the lead gets interfered with far more in WCS.
    Based on my experience, I'd disagree. Having said that, I don't think the dance style matters anywhere near as much as the ability of the follower, be they MJ or WCS, to indicate to the lead their desire to play and/or abort the play in order to resume following the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    As mentioned before the lady doing stuff (not specifically led) seems to. Specifically attempting to get to the end of the slot.
    Again, based on my experience I'd disagree.

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