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Thread: Is it me...

  1. #1
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    Is it me...

    ...or is West Coast Swing looking more and more like West Coast Jive on the social dance floor..?

    I'm a WCS noob granted but sometimes I can distinguish what a couple is trying to dance in freestyle sometimes. I saw a fair bit of it at Daventry. Leader stepping forward to meet the follower on count 1 yet the whole thing being littered with sugar pushes, with the slot random changing directions...

    Is there a new dance called West Coast Jive that I haven't been told about or am I just being a noob?

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    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    I think (being fairly new to WCS myself too) that because a lot of jivers see more WCS on the dance floor, plus there now being lots of slotted jive classes (many of which are taught by jive teachers who also do WCS), it's fairly logical that people will start combining parts from the two dances.

    I dance with quite a few guys who've done some Simon & Nicole classes, who have what I would class as sugar pushes, tucks turns, L or R side passes in WCS, but they've never actually done a WCS class in their life.

    So I'd say it's more that Jive is looking more like WCS than WCS looking like jive.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    .........So I'd say it's more that Jive is looking more like WCS than WCS looking like jive.
    Except that the timing is different


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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    So I'd say it's more that Jive is looking more like WCS than WCS looking like jive.
    That's the beauty of MJ, it can morph to incorporate many styles
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    ...or is West Coast Swing looking more and more like West Coast Jive on the social dance floor..?

    I'm a WCS noob granted but sometimes I can distinguish what a couple is trying to dance in freestyle sometimes. I saw a fair bit of it at Daventry. Leader stepping forward to meet the follower on count 1 yet the whole thing being littered with sugar pushes, with the slot random changing directions...

    Is there a new dance called West Coast Jive that I haven't been told about or am I just being a noob?
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    I think (being fairly new to WCS myself too) that because a lot of jivers see more WCS on the dance floor, plus there now being lots of slotted jive classes (many of which are taught by jive teachers who also do WCS), it's fairly logical that people will start combining parts from the two dances.

    I dance with quite a few guys who've done some Simon & Nicole classes, who have what I would class as sugar pushes, tucks turns, L or R side passes in WCS, but they've never actually done a WCS class in their life.

    So I'd say it's more that Jive is looking more like WCS than WCS looking like jive.
    to both of them.

    This subject (MJ becoming more WCS like) has been a fav. topic of discussion for me in the the last year or more.

    From my perspective I have definitely seen MJ take on a more WCS look, from about 18 months ago or so...............and it continues apace.

    And that is great! It continues the evolution of MJ and reconfirms MJ as the 'über -dance - ie the one which sits above all others. It is not constrained to limited forms such as AT, or stuck in a time warp like Lindy: instead it is free to change, adapt and grow, taking from other dances as appropriate.

    The good thing is that MJ has not taken on the 'snooty' attitude of WCS! (or all that silly and unnecessary footwork!)

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    It continues the evolution of MJ and reconfirms MJ as the 'über -dance - ie the one which sits above all others.
    ...
    ...

    The good thing is that MJ has not taken on the 'snooty' attitude of WCS!
    Oh the irony.....

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Except that the timing is different
    People say this but I've never worked out how.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    People say this but I've never worked out how.

    I'll leave the experts to answer that one


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    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    That's the beauty of MJ, it can morph to incorporate many styles
    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    to both of them.

    This subject (MJ becoming more WCS like) has been a fav. topic of discussion for me in the the last year or more.

    From my perspective I have definitely seen MJ take on a more WCS look, from about 18 months ago or so...............and it continues apace.

    And that is great! It continues the evolution of MJ and reconfirms MJ as the 'über -dance - ie the one which sits above all others. It is not constrained to limited forms such as AT, or stuck in a time warp like Lindy: instead it is free to change, adapt and grow, taking from other dances as appropriate.

    The good thing is that MJ has not taken on the 'snooty' attitude of WCS! (or all that silly and unnecessary footwork!)
    David Plummer names & teaches his dance style "Smooth Jive" (or something like that) - it is Slotted Modern Jive with lots of WCS moves and it is fun to do, and looks fab, however when watching, it can also be confused with pure WCS

    Dancing is for fun, it doesn't matter what you call your dance as long as you enjoy it. It's naming the dance that possibly causes the elitism.

    We have a similar problem with the other swing dances, with Savoy Lindy being the master (so some say)


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    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    David Plummer names & teaches his dance style "Smooth Jive" (or something like that) - it is Slotted Modern Jive with lots of WCS moves and it is fun to do, and looks fab, however when watching, it can also be confused with pure WCS

    Dancing is for fun, it doesn't matter what you call your dance as long as you enjoy it. It's naming the dance that possibly causes the elitism.

    We have a similar problem with the other swing dances, with Savoy Lindy being the master (so some say)
    Yes - having been to one of his Smooth Jive evenings - it is exactly that - the evolution of MJ - and as such I would put it at the forefront of this. I do think it is a great way forward and hope that it (MJ) goes in that direction.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Except that the timing is different
    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    People say this but I've never worked out how.
    But what is the definition of timing within a dance? I'd hazard a guess that it was linked to the footwork of the basic patterns/moves and as such WCS is clearly and simply recognisable as different by having a walk-walk-triple-triple for the 6 count basics as opposed to the stepping on every count that I'd identify as the MJ basic.

    In response to the initial question I am surprised at how frequently my jive dancing is thought to be WCS by onlookers (who usually have little or no experience of WCS tuition) For me it feels very different dancing MJ from dancing WCS, even if the look and the shapes have similarities.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    In response to the initial question I am surprised at how frequently my jive dancing is thought to be WCS by onlookers (who usually have little or no experience of WCS tuition) For me it feels very different dancing MJ from dancing WCS, even if the look and the shapes have similarities.


    That matches my experiences exactly as well, to the point where some people I'm dancing with think that I'm dancing WCS while they're dancing MJ! I'm not sure how they figure that could work..... but it definitely doesn't feel like WCS to me.

    I think a lot of people watch youtube clips, see people dancing WCS and think that it must be just like MJ with some specific style elements. They just don't know any differently, so they don't know any better, and it's not really their fault. I've even had one couple who were vaguely interested in WCS tell me that once you could dance Ceroc (virtually the only known name for MJ in NZ) you can dance anything with only a few small changes.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Timing in MJ vs WCS



    Both MJ and WCS have basic movements that take 2 musical counts.
    • In WCS you start a movement on the downbeat, and finish on the upbeat.
    • In MJ you start on the upbeat, and finish on the downbeat.
    This gets complicated when you don't have a clearly defined start and/or end of a movement. Sometimes you can only tell at the end of the whole move. Even then you might not be sure.
    There might also be a very elastic connection. It is possible for the leader to be leading one timing, and the follower to be doing another...

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    Registered User Allez-Cat's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Dancing is for fun, it doesn't matter what you call your dance as long as you enjoy it
    Quite

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Timing in MJ vs WCS



    Both MJ and WCS have basic movements that take 2 musical counts.
    • In WCS you start a movement on the downbeat, and finish on the upbeat.
    • In MJ you start on the upbeat, and finish on the downbeat.
    This gets complicated when you don't have a clearly defined start and/or end of a movement. Sometimes you can only tell at the end of the whole move. Even then you might not be sure.
    There might also be a very elastic connection. It is possible for the leader to be leading one timing, and the follower to be doing another...
    Until I read this I thought I knew how to dance MJ

    Speaking personally, I start dancing at the beginning of the song and finish at the end.

    Moves are in MJ are not a set number of beats so they can start and finish anywhere in the bar. And because the final step of one move can be the first step of the next they can start and finish on any beat, up, down, etc.

    For those who are having problems with the up and down thing, for dancing all dances except the waltz beats are numbered and come in sets of 8, when counting music the downbeats are the odd beats (counts 1, 3, 5 and 7) and the upbeats are the even beats (counts 2, 4, 6 and 8). The first step of almost every dance occurs on a downbeat. I believe this is true for MJ. I'm not sure about WCS because I've only done a few workshops - but I also thought it started on the downbeat.

    And, if we're talking about initiating or starting a 'movement', this starts somewhere between the beats so the weight can change on the beat.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Until I read this I thought I knew how to dance MJ

    Speaking personally, I start dancing at the beginning of the song and finish at the end.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Until I read this I thought I knew how to dance MJ

    Speaking personally, I start dancing at the beginning of the song and finish at the end.
    Excellent. Post of the year!

    The thing is - when watching YouTubes of WCS, seeing it live in USA or at Lux, Utopia, there are long stretches where there is no discernible WCS specific footwork*. It sill though, does have a WCS feel despite that.

    *So why do it at all?! (WCS minus tripley footwork = smooth, slotted MJ)

    PS. Despite what you might think, I do love WCS! For me though it is that unobtainable nectar at the end of a triple-triple rainbow looking down at me from high in the sky.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    The thing is - when watching YouTubes of WCS, seeing it live in USA or at Lux, Utopia, there are long stretches where there is no discernible WCS specific footwork*. It sill though, does have a WCS feel despite that.

    *So why do it at all?! (WCS minus tripley footwork = smooth, slotted MJ)

    PS. Despite what you might think, I do love WCS! For me though it is that unobtainable nectar at the end of a triple-triple rainbow looking down at me from high in the sky.
    Same reason you can see people definitely doing Lindy Hop, even when they're not doing step-step-triple step, or charleston footwork I guess. Because there comes a point when you don't need to/don't want to/the music suggests you shouldn't, but you have the confidence and experience to be able to pick up the footwork again at the right time.
    Also, I don't know about WCS, but there are some tracks that you could Lindy to, but they're so fast that if you tried to include every last triple step, you'd soon come unstuck.
    That's the current "nirvana" for me. To be able to drop and pick-up the footwork as and when I want.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Moves are in MJ are not a set number of beats so they can start and finish anywhere in the bar. And because the final step of one move can be the first step of the next they can start and finish on any beat, up, down, etc.
    That is completely wrong.

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Moves are in MJ are not a set number of beats so they can start and finish anywhere in the bar.
    I thought MJ "moves" (sequences) were indeed a set number of beats, or why else do teachers count them out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And because the final step of one move can be the first step of the next they can start and finish on any beat, up, down, etc.
    I'm not sure about that either - surely MJ steps are by definition on the downbeat? That is, they steps finish on the downbeat; that's the point where the weight transfer is done?

    (If the track is "DahDUMdahDUMdahDUMdahDUM", the steps are finished on the "DUM" bits)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And, if we're talking about initiating or starting a 'movement', this starts somewhere between the beats so the weight can change on the beat.
    As I understand it, the initiation of a step starts on the upbeat ("Dah").

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