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Thread: Is it me...

  1. #101
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    It isn't exclusively modern jive (in that I'm sure there are other named dances the simple moves could be interpreted as)

    I doubt you would say they were dancing something else if you saw them on the a Ceroc dance floor, for that period.

    The follower clearly doesn't need prior knowledge here, which is fairly compatible with modern jive.
    not sure this adds to the debate, but if you watch the others in that video, it seems pretty clear to me that they're doing some basic Salsa.

  2. #102
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    exactly. For a while the dance would be neither - as you start following rules that belong to only one dance (and hence conflict with the other), it'll just be very messy - if you try leading me in MJ and I am dancing WCS, we'll both be very frustrated because lead and follow will not work.
    A WCS only follower might have a problem with a jive only lead, but I think experience shows this isn't always the case (granted the follower may be frustrated with the lack of opportunity to strut her struff).

    At what points do you think it would become neither ?

    What do you think are the points of conflict ?

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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post

    I don't agree with this.

    One reason is that Modern Jive requires very little prior knowledge by the follower. Therefore it is hard to say it is the same as something something that requires particular knowledge.
    and WCS does not require any prior knowledge???? Out of interest, how much WCS have yyou done in the past and do you lead/follow?


    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I think it is the follower that matters more here in making it look more like WCS than jive (and hence her background would be interesting).

    I'd be surprised if the follower would have much difficulty in following WCS.
    Both dancers had not done WCS prior, both just dance WCS now.


    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    A WCS only follower might have a problem with a jive only lead, but I think experience shows this isn't always the case (granted the follower may be frustrated with the lack of opportunity to strut her struff).

    At what points do you think it would become neither ?

    What do you think are the points of conflict ?
    Have you not read a single post in this thread? I don't mean to sound repetative but WCS and MJ are two seperate dances, completely different from each other. You need to learn WCS to dance WCS, you can't ' just follow' it.

  4. #104
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post

    You need to learn WCS to dance WCS, you can't ' just follow' it.
    In general I'd agree, however there will always be the odd exception as an MJ follower with an understanding of slotting, tension, compression etc. could theoretically follow a WCS lead without ever learning any WCS.

    (Caviat - Such a person may not currently exist)

  5. #105
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    and WCS does not require any prior knowledge????.
    Other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Both dancers had not done WCS prior, both just dance WCS now.
    Thanks for that. That surprises me.

    However there looks to be a clear WCS influence. Lessons or not it must have come from somewhere.
    Last edited by frodo; 24th-October-2010 at 09:42 PM. Reason: reply in single post

  6. #106
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    In general I'd agree, however there will always be the odd exception as an MJ follower with an understanding of slotting, tension, compression etc. could theoretically follow a WCS lead without ever learning any WCS....
    hmm........ I don't think so, not with only MJ experience, they will not be familiar with the timing (please see above)

    However, if the dancer has swing experience then it wouldn't be a problem, if fact my Lindy friends can follow westie leads with no WCS training
    (mind you WCS did come from Lindy)

    The beauty of Modern Jive is that an experienced dancer from most other styles can follow a MJ lead with no problem.


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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    What would make you think that we'd ever think of contradicting the best out there ?
    NZM and I both got pretty much all we know about wcs and have posted on here from J&T
    It's just that WCS seems to be full of contradicting advice...it's a bit infuriating sometimes...

  8. #108
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    It's just that WCS seems to be full of contradicting advice...it's a bit infuriating sometimes...
    Actually, I do agree with this.

    WCS is not a British dance, and most of our WCS teachers are home grown, so you would get conflicting advice.

    Mind you, we possibly get the same in Modern Jive but have come to accept it - have a word with Andy McGregor he will tell you (which foot do you step back on etc etc)


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  9. #109
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    It's just that WCS seems to be full of contradicting advice...it's a bit infuriating sometimes...
    I don't think I've ever contradicted Caro, so you can't possibly mean us.

    Seriously though, I know what mean and it is/can be confusing. One thing I've come to realise though is that often when two people seem to be giving contradicting, or at least different advice in practice they actually do much the same thing. The issue isn't so much about what they do in most cases - but about how they think about what they do and where that fits into the rest of their mental framework about the dance.

    The real issue I've found is usually one of semantics and translation. One incident in particular from this forum comes to mind regarding double preps (see here for details: http://forum.cerocscotland.com/showthread.php?t=18740)

    The short version is that I use what I consider to be a double prep, and consider that a good thing. Others consider them to be the root of all evil. Since this thread was posted (which was well over a year ago now) I've travelled a lot more, taken lessons from a lot more pro's, and asked them to let me know if they think I'm double prepping or single prepping. The responses were quite interesting - those who think double prepping is good thought I double prep. Those who think it's evil think I single prep. One at least moderated her answer by calling the "first" prep a result of contra body motion rather than a deliberate prep.

    From what I can gather the "double prep is evil" camp got there because people started wildly exaggerating their preps and ended up hindering the follower rather than helping her, and the easiest option to fix this was to teach not to prep on the 1 at all.

  10. #110
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    In general I'd agree, however there will always be the odd exception as an MJ follower with an understanding of slotting, tension, compression etc. could theoretically follow a WCS lead without ever learning any WCS.

    (Caviat - Such a person may not currently exist)
    They should also have a understanding of the basic footwork, body positioning and, as Minnie said, Timing. In otherwords an understanding of WCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Thanks for that. That surprises me.

    However there looks to be a clear WCS influence. Lessons or not it must have come from somewhere.
    Just propper MJ. Lead and Follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Actually, I do agree with this.

    WCS is not a British dance, and most of our WCS teachers are home grown, so you would get conflicting advice.

    Mind you, we possibly get the same in Modern Jive but have come to accept it - have a word with Andy McGregor he will tell you (which foot do you step back on etc etc)
    It's not always conflicting advice though. Most of the time it's just a different way of saying the same thing. Thats why the good teachers are good. They explain difficault concenpts clearly. Other teachers may understand those concepts, just not be able to explain them in the same detail or as clear.

    In MJ it's a free for all with teaching. There is no right or wrong. Each teacher has their own take. If one person insists 'you have to step back on this foot' it doesn't mean it's right. It's just their opinion. (no matter how much they tell everyone they are the best teacher in the world )

  11. #111
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    Re: Is it me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    From what I can gather the "double prep is evil" camp got there because people started wildly exaggerating their preps and ended up hindering the follower rather than helping her, and the easiest option to fix this was to teach not to prep on the 1 at all.
    Nail on the head with that one

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