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Thread: beginners lessons

  1. #1
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    beginners lessons

    I have a feeling that I may have touched on this subject before but nevertheless I will rant on.
    Let me set a little scenario first.

    Typical class night.About 80/100 people possibly 10/12 true beginners.The rest are all seasoned MJivers with about 5 years dancing under their belts.


    With about;I believe;20 core beginners moves these seasoned vets have been taught these moves every week,sometimes 2 maybe 3 times a week,for the last 3/4/5 years.
    Why then do they still have to be taught these same moves with explanations of every twist and turn and also,as a dj,I have to play the right track,not too fast,not too slow,preferably one the teacher recognises,if its new,dont play too many and then when you go into freestyle,freedom reigns and you can play anything and of course they carry on doing beginner moves to tracks that they 'couldn't' dance to in the lesson.
    During my previous stint as a independant MJ DJ it was all very straight forward with no real music issues but now that I have got my foot in the door of Ceroc,the music for beginners lessons and to a lesser extent that of the intermediate lesson seems to have taken on such an importance that I find myself actually as nervous as hell before a class.That cant be right.

    Why not take the small number of true beginners to wherever you have the refresher class and let the intermediate(?) have longer freestyle before the intermediate lesson.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    with a beginner only class, its the blind leading the blind

    by encouraging intermediates to join in, a beginners class , new dancers have an opportunity to dance with more experience dancers

    experience dancers don't just go to learn, they go to socialise and doing a class were you don't have to concentrate too hard, makes this a little easier

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Thats all very well and I can see the advantage but isnt that what taxi dancers are for.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    I also dont buy into the socialising arguement.Not in the context of my post.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Thats all very well and I can see the advantage but isnt that what taxi dancers are for.
    No
    Taxi dancers help with the class that runs over the beginners moves while the intermediate class is running. They also dance with the beginners until 10ish and are a focal point for any beginners to ask questions.

    Ceroc has always been based around the social angle rather than going out of theiway to teach loads of technique etc etc

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    I have a feeling that I may have touched on this subject before but nevertheless I will rant on.
    Let me set a little scenario first.

    Typical class night.About 80/100 people possibly 10/12 true beginners.The rest are all seasoned MJivers with about 5 years dancing under their belts.


    With about;I believe;20 core beginners moves these seasoned vets have been taught these moves every week,sometimes 2 maybe 3 times a week,for the last 3/4/5 years.
    Why then do they still have to be taught these same moves with explanations of every twist and turn and also,as a dj,I have to play the right track,not too fast,not too slow,preferably one the teacher recognises,if its new,dont play too many and then when you go into freestyle,freedom reigns and you can play anything and of course they carry on doing beginner moves to tracks that they 'couldn't' dance to in the lesson.
    During my previous stint as a independant MJ DJ it was all very straight forward with no real music issues but now that I have got my foot in the door of Ceroc,the music for beginners lessons and to a lesser extent that of the intermediate lesson seems to have taken on such an importance that I find myself actually as nervous as hell before a class.That cant be right.

    Why not take the small number of true beginners to wherever you have the refresher class and let the intermediate(?) have longer freestyle before the intermediate lesson.
    Well, I don't know about the venues you DJ at but all the ones I've ever taught at the make up of the beginners class is about 10% new people, 70% people who have been dancing less than a year and the remaining 20% for more than a year.

    The reason why it is important to integrate complete beginners with other dancers who are still learning, or dancers that are more experienced is so that they learn quicker. If you've ever seen a class with just complete beginners in it you'll know what I mean - it's the blind leading the blind (as Phil's just said). Of course the perfect scenario is for each beginner to pair up with a taxi dancer for the duration of the class, but that's simply not feasable. So given the resources most franchisees have available it's the only way it can be done. In any event, the teachers are taught on the CPD courses to add style points to the beginners moves to enhance the experience of those dancers that are more experienced and to direct those adaptations at those people. This keeps the interest up and helps to make the classes more relevant to everyone.

    As for music: well you need a clear beat and we ourselves teach at around 108-112 BPM. Not too fast, not too slow - as for style, I use all types of music.

    With regard to freestyles: there is a directive from Ceroc that the freestyle between the classes should be around 112 -118 BPM (I think) and that the start of freestyle (for about 3-4 songs) should be around 115-120 BPM (I think) - so that the speed is incremental during the evening.

    Anyway, that's generally what I do and it all makes complete sense to me!

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Maybe I'm over-simplifying, but...
    It's a beginners lesson, if non-beginners, DJs or anyone else has a problem with that, surely they should just f*** off?

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Typical class night.About 80/100 people possibly 10/12 true beginners.The rest are all seasoned MJivers with about 5 years dancing under their belts.
    So in other words, a busy and popular class.

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Why then do they still have to be taught these same moves with explanations of every twist and turn and also,as a dj,I have to play the right track,not too fast,not too slow,preferably one the teacher recognises,if its new,dont play too many and then when you go into freestyle,freedom reigns and you can play anything and of course they carry on doing beginner moves to tracks that they 'couldn't' dance to in the lesson.
    Because that's clearly what the 80-100 people in the class want?

    MJ classes are not designed to teach dancing, they're designed to get as many people in to a class as possible, and keep them there. Similarly for the music, I imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Why not take the small number of true beginners to wherever you have the refresher class and let the intermediate(?) have longer freestyle before the intermediate lesson.
    What would be the business benefit of doing that?

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    Re: beginners lessons

    It can help the beginners to have intermediate dancers in the beginner's class. I don't imagine that a class composed entirely of beginners would progress as fast.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Maybe I'm over-simplifying, but...
    It's a beginners lesson, if non-beginners, DJs or anyone else has a problem with that, surely they should just f*** off?
    Bad day Gav?

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    Re: beginners lessons

    [QUOTE=Rocky;579972]Well, I don't know about the venues you DJ at but all the ones I've ever taught at the make up of the beginners class is about 10% new people, 70% people who have been dancing less than a year and the remaining 20% for more than a year.


    With regard to freestyles: there is a directive from Ceroc that the freestyle between the classes should be around 112 -118 BPM (I think) and that the start of freestyle (for about 3-4 songs) should be around 115-120 BPM (I think) - so that the speed is incremental during the evening.

    QUOTE]

    I am not sure that I would agree with your assumption of the make up of the class.

    I was not aware of the directive with regard to music from Ceroc.

    Thanks for the input.

    Shame others couldn't be more constructive

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Bad day Gav?
    Not the best I've ever had, but still...

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Why then do they still have to be taught these same moves with explanations of every twist and turn
    Because it's a beginners class, which means that if there's only one true beginner there, the class is for them, not everyone else that turns up.
    What if 90% of the people did WCS or Tango? Should the class then be a WCS/Tango class and the Ceroc beginners put in another room out of the way?

    Could the music issue be because the teacher isn't flexible enough to use any suitable music? or maybe just because Ceroc like to think that they have control of their DJs?

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    Re: beginners lessons

    I’m not sure what the problem is DJTrev. This is a class night not a freestyle. As an intermediate you have the choice to come along to either the beginner’s class, intermediate class or if you want, just the freestyle.

    I do remember the opening night of Ceroc Nights – Romford, there were 90% beginners and it was really difficult.


    Beginners need to be nurtured because they are the intermediates of the future. We were all beginners once and I can remember how important it was to dance with more experienced dancers in the class, as it just made more sense.

    Now that I am learning Tango the same thing applies, I am always grateful to dance with more experienced leads because it helps me to progress.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Shame others couldn't be more constructive
    How does your own medicine taste?

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    How does your own medicine taste?
    Not very pleasant,in fact a bit bitter.

    I have been waiting with baited breath Rob whether you would,but deep down I knew I could rely on you.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I’m not sure what the problem is DJTrev. This is a class night not a freestyle. As an intermediate you have the choice to come along to either the beginner’s class, intermediate class or if you want, just the freestyle.
    FONT]
    It's not so much a problem Maxine,more a frustrated observation.I am sure I will manage to cope with it and move on.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    It's not so much a problem Maxine,more a frustrated observation.I am sure I will manage to cope with it and move on.
    join the great unwashed and come over to "our" side of the stage
    let the DJ and the teacher take the strain

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    It's not so much a problem Maxine,more a frustrated observation.I am sure I will manage to cope with it and move on.
    Well, blimey, at some point I think you just have to think of it as a job - you turn up, you do what you're told to, and you go home.

    Life's too short to stress about this, you know? If the business works, then it's fine.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    As a beginner I'd have given up if I hadn't had my hand held (figuratively) by the intermediate dancers in the beginners class. I needed that absolute basic idiots guide to absolutely everything, including the hand position, the hand shape, how to lead a turn, how to spin on the spot, how to match the basic beat in the music (getting beyond that is proving even harder) and even how to achieve a simple swing compression/tension movement.

    Any class with someone there on the first night really does need to start with those basics, and sadly too many "intermediate" dancers don't pay them enough attention either.

    As someone that mostly knows the beginner moves now I'm happy to help the new beginners. I can improve my technique on a few moves I still don't do very well and I get to chat to the dancers I see most weeks (although that's bad in a way - sometimes we talk too much, miss the teachers instructions then have to play catch-up; sorry patient teachers for disturbing your classes). The music is however almost irrelevant to all of that - one class I attend most weeks rarely has music during the beginners class.

    Interestingly that class is also the most likely to deviate from a standard beginner lesson if the people attending are able to do more than that. During the beginner slot we've covered footwork, 'improver' moves, variations on a theme (i.e. do a basket, now exit it normally, now with one hand, with one hand then a spin, with one hand then a counter-spin, now don't tell your partner which so she has to follow properly..) and on one less enjoyable night learning to dance Bilbao.

    One class I go to has only a dozen couples at the start of the beginner lesson, 40 or more at the end and more people turn up in time for the intermediate class. There are still plenty of experienced dancers helping out the newcomers and there are also the dancers that sit out the intermediate class too but tolerate my clumsy attempts during freestyle.

    At another venue there's a concurrent Blues class running so that the people that know what they're doing can learn something new during the beginners class and still do the intermediate class and freestyle.

    But either way.. I'm there to have fun, everyone else seems to be there to have fun, and if the music is fairly straightforward, that doesn't bother me in the slightest - it's nice having some simple songs to dance to, especially if I'm going over the beginner moves with someone that's still fairly new.

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    Re: beginners lessons

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    I have been waiting with baited breath Rob whether you would,but deep down I knew I could rely on you.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, blimey, at some point I think you just have to think of it as a job - you turn up, you do what you're told to, and you go home.
    I agree with DB. You're just a button pusher, get on with it and stop whining. No-one really cares what's played in the class so long as it has a clear, strong beat and is neither crazy fast nor treacle slow. If you can't find tracks that fit this criteria you need to question if you should be doing the role in the first place.

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