How solid are your dancers?

[spindr]

Originally posted by ChrisA
At risk of generalising horrendously, the people seem to fall into two camps: the young, competitive ones (the uni ballroom scene is still pretty healthy I believe), and er, those that aren't - and haven't been for a looooong time . I may be out of date, though - so please correct me, anyone that knows better.

Well, Eric's class in Bristol used to have a lot of Modern Jiver's who went along (http://www.dancematrix.com/bristol/content.asp)
it defnititely wasn't uni based (but it was still popular).

SpinDr.

[frodo]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Ballroom music is much less popular. Very occasionally there's something in 3/4 time that would be waltzable. Quickstep and foxtrot less so, arguably, at least without forcing them on to unnatural music that just happens to be at the right speed. The so-called "strict-tempo" ballroom music has been around for about a million years, and IMHO it sounds like it too. It just wouldn't appeal much to the 20-40+ crowd that constitutes most of the MJ crowd.

Latin music would probably sound a bit groovier to us youngsters, but more than about 2 cha chas in a row always used to drive me mad. Ballroom jive music needs to have quite a rock-n-roll vibe for it to feel (or look I expect) any good, so it's far more limiting than MJ-able tracks.

There is perhaps an argument that better DJ'ing could do a lot here. There seem to be many experts in music involved in the Modern Jive arena, so the general standard of DJ'ing may be much higher.

Also a ballroom (&latin) DJ only needs to find a fraction of the number of tracks for each dance a modern jive DJ would need to.

I never really understood the rationale for the 'strict tempo' thing, but agree the music tagged with it is from a completely different era, and very off-putting.

Originally posted by ChrisA

At risk of generalising horrendously, the people seem to fall into two camps: the young, competitive ones (the uni ballroom scene is still pretty healthy I believe), and er, those that aren't - and haven't been for a looooong time . I may be out of date, though - so please correct me, anyone that knows better.

I'd agree with that. I thought ballroom (&latin) was plain unpopular (other than at uni), but was surprised to learn that the tea dances in London, much more than in evening dances, can get good numbers.

[cali]

We actually have an improvers level at my studio. Is that not universal??? We have a dance card with which we are required to take 5 beginning lessons and then be evaluated by a teacher. They authorise you to move up. Then you have to take 5 improvers before you are evaluated again to move up into the intermediate level. Some are authorised, some are asked to stay within their level for various reasons.

It seems to give the instructors a bit of control over who is in what classes and therefore not have the problem of some students holding a class back. I have a friend who has been in intermediate level for over a year now, I believe!

The test is to first execute the patterns you learned in the class that night and then to freestyle a variety of moves to show that you have learned them and learned them correctly.

[Paul F]

Originally posted by cali
We actually have an improvers level at my studio. Is that not universal??? We have a dance card with which we are required to take 5 beginning lessons and then be evaluated by a teacher. They authorise you to move up. Then you have to take 5 improvers before you are evaluated again to move up into the intermediate level. Some are authorised, some are asked to stay within their level for various reasons.

It seems to give the instructors a bit of control over who is in what classes and therefore not have the problem of some students holding a class back. I have a friend who has been in intermediate level for over a year now, I believe!

The test is to first execute the patterns you learned in the class that night and then to freestyle a variety of moves to show that you have learned them and learned them correctly.

My obvious next question is......................how popular is ceroc in NZ. I guess this will answer my question once and for all?

If its popular then i would love to see it here.

Trouble is changing now it has been implemented the other way. People hate change. If it was something that was started from the beginning then thats different.

I wouldnt mind a poll to see how many people on this forum (assumed at least slightly experienced dancers) would prefer to go to a class/freestyle night where the regulars are trained and taught in this, more scrutinised way............

........good dancers attract good dancers??

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Martin
Something that has raised it's head in Aussie land recently being how grounded in ceroc (solid) are the dancers.

Many dancers here do a few beginners classes and think they are ready for the intermediate lesson, which makes the intermediate rows, if nothing else "challenging".

Hence we have dancers who have danced for some time doing advanced routines and lessons who really have not mastered the basics.
(somehting commented upon by some of the teachers and observed first hand by myself).

Whilst we do not want to discorage dancers in thier first few months, should we not be concerned about basic levels.

In NZ, they have to pass a test to progress to the next class (from what Hamish told me anyway).


In Newcastle (the NSW Newcastle) they have what I reccon to be a brilliant sytem.

Beginners need to demonstrate that they can execute the 16 basic beginers moves by going through them with the teacher, ALSO they have to dance to a complete track and include a minimum of 6 beginner moves with a teacher demonstrating lead or follow techniques.

Then they can pass onto intermediate B classes (non dips and drops) - if they are sucessful at a dips and drops workshop they can progress to intermediate A.

End result being thier dancers are GREAT to dance with and I remain injury free when visiting Newcastle venues.

In Sydney, to not "upset people" they have a more relaxed approach - which IMHO has lowered the standard of the dancers coming through.

Martin Hi when I last came to your part of the world in March 2002 I went to Perth, Sydney and Melbourne and did Ceroc in all three places.

Perth is run by a fellow ex pat pom Chris Dodd who at the time had just started it up over there, and it was developing, I still keep in touch with him occasionally.

Now in Sydney I went to the Woolamaloo venue and a chap called Luke Kudric was teaching that night. It was a one off, and I turned up did the beginners class. As Luke started his intermediate class, he turned his Mic off walked over to me and had a chat about how many ceroc lessons I had done. Upon explanation (I had been dancing 18 months at the time), he was fine and showed me some useful bits as well.

In Melbourne Caterina danced with me and checked that I was up to scratch for the second lesson - I passed with flying colours.

I got warm welcome from you guys by the way.

Certainly though the standard for the intermediates is higher than here, they want the beginners moves done properly.

[bigdjiver]

This all looks like getting closer to Ballroom and further from the people.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
This all looks like getting closer to Ballroom and further from the people.

Yep. That's why I gave up ballroom dancing years ago. Please, let's not go down that road!

[Rachel]

Originally posted by LilyB
Yep. That's why I gave up ballroom dancing years ago. Please, let's not go down that road!

Hmmm, I'm not really so sure. I am against formal exams which would catergorise people, worry them, put them off going, or generally take the fun out of it. But it really does seem to be a problem that so many men want to do the intermediate before they can do the basics properly.

I liked it when I did salsa and you had to be invited by the teacher to move up to the intermediate level. It was nothing formal, you didn't even have to dance with her (though maybe the men did) - she just subtley walked up to you and suggested you might like to start doing the intermediate class from next week. Perhaps this only worked as there were far fewer people than at a standard Ceroc class.
Rachel

[Paul F]

From the response about how things work over there the term 'exam' is being thrown around and I think this is what is worrying everyone.

It looks like its not an exam at all but just a quick word from the teacher. As long as the teacher posesses good inter-personal communication skills I cant see a problem.
Quite a few people have compared what ceroc is with ballroom. From my perspective its a completely different ball game with completely different axioms. (more strict for want of a better word). Ceroc is not and it would be down to the teacher to emphasize that subtly. For example safety would be a concern to allowing the progression of attendees. If a person was dancing "without due care and attention " then they would be informed as such and a different approach suggested.

As stated the standard of intermediates over there is higher.
I would still love an answer to my question though.......How many people do the venues get over there that employ this system???

I dont expect a venue by venue breakdown of attendance, just as to whether they are, on average, well attended or not.



How about the idea of running some classes with this format over here then? Keep the current classes the way they are but introduce a few using this new format.
That couldnt hurt anyone could it (figuratively speaking )

I think we would then find the current classes used as a platform to get the beginners upto a certain level then they will move on to the controlled classes. I could well be wrong though.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Jon L
Martin Hi when I last came to your part of the world in March 2002 I went to Perth, Sydney and Melbourne and did Ceroc in all three places.

Perth is run by a fellow ex pat pom Chris Dodd who at the time had just started it up over there, and it was developing, I still keep in touch with him occasionally.

Now in Sydney I went to the Woolamaloo venue and a chap called Luke Kudric was teaching that night. It was a one off, and I turned up did the beginners class. As Luke started his intermediate class, he turned his Mic off walked over to me and had a chat about how many ceroc lessons I had done. Upon explanation (I had been dancing 18 months at the time), he was fine and showed me some useful bits as well.

In Melbourne Caterina danced with me and checked that I was up to scratch for the second lesson - I passed with flying colours.

I got warm welcome from you guys by the way.

Certainly though the standard for the intermediates is higher than here, they want the beginners moves done properly.

A refreshing experience, well Chirs Dodd has been running Perth for many years, it is just that he called it Ceroc recently. I helped him out in 1999 for a few weeks and he was well established then.

Luke is the guy that stuck to beginners classes for 3 months before he moved to intermediate, a great guy, big, bold and Italian - fantastic that he took the time out to talk to you "off line" and was concerned for you personally to do that. (I am sure he will not mind me telling you this, he is very proud of the grounding he got and recounts to beginners his own experiences)

Caterina is also a star, how many people will notice and make sure you were comfortable and were in the right place for you?

So the system works AND you felt comfortable and respected.

Originally posted by Paul F
I would still love an answer to my question though.......How many people do the venues get over there that employ this system???

Well I do not know the NZ answer to that, what I do know is that in NSW Newcastle (a much smaller place than Sydney) the typical attendies for Ceroc was about 20 to 40 people, then John and Caroline www.mamboroc.com started up 3 years ago and implemented the system I mentioned. Learn all the beginner moves, show them to the teacher AND freestyle at least 6 of those to a complete track with the teacher to thier satisfaction before moving up. They now have a regular 250 dancers, who are great and dance SO well and also win comps.

As I stated they are ALL a joy to dance with - these guys ROCK ! and have students to be proud of, in fact John has now given up his daytime job and concertrates on his students as that now is his main income.

I have had many chats to John and Caroline from NSW Newcastle ever since they started up and I am proud of the way they have a love for the dance and for thier students.

By the way it has nothing to do with ballroom, it is simply a heartfelt concern for students at all levels and has been an incredible success story (sorry Lily - ballroom has nothing to do with it , simply a desire for all to do well)

Marty

[cali]

Originally posted by Paul F

As stated the standard of intermediates over there is higher.
I would still love an answer to my question though.......How many people do the venues get over there that employ this system???

I dont expect a venue by venue breakdown of attendance, just as to whether they are, on average, well attended or not.

The classes are quite full actually. We have a crowded room most nights. There are 2 beginners classes, 2 improvers, 1 intermediate and 1 advanced class each night. Each beginners class has about 40 - 60 students, same with the improvers. I have never been present for an intermediate class, but the advanced classes are usually around 30-40 in numbers.

They are definately well attended at our studio. Ceroc is quite large and popular overall in New Zealand.

[Paul F]

Originally posted by cali
There are 2 beginners classes, 2 improvers, 1 intermediate and 1 advanced class each night. Each beginners class has about 40 - 60 students, same with the improvers. I have never been present for an intermediate class, but the advanced classes are usually around 30-40 in numbers.

They are definately well attended at our studio. Ceroc is quite large and popular overall in New Zealand.

Do all these classes run simultaneously at the same venue ??

[cali]

These classes are all run at the same venue on Monday and Tuesday. Schedule as follows:

Monday
6 intermediate
7 beginners
8 freestyle time
830 improvers

Tuesday
6 improvers
7 beginners
8 freestyle time
830 advanced

Wed/Thurs
ballroom, latin and medals

[cali]

I guess what I forgot to say is that you pay for the night, not per class. So, if you come at 6 you can take classes until 930 if you have passed to that level. So, some of the dancers (ie. advanced, intermediate) dance all three classes each night, to taxi or just for fun.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Stuart M
MJ appears to be considerably more popular than ballroom in the UK and if you started introducing formal tests, I suspect MJ would become just as popular as ballroom here... I think someone's said this before but it's worth repeating.

How do we know how popular ballroom is? And how do you measure popularity of a dance style?

I've noticed that there are more ballroom dancing schools than modern jive. Most towns have at least one dedicated ballroom dancing school. As far as I'm aware there are no dedicated MJ schools. Many universities have a ballroom dancing society - I think there's an MJ one in Bristol but I'm not aware of any others. There are ballroom dancing competitions just about every weekend - there are about 8 a year for MJ. So from those three observations we could suppose that ballroom dancing is more popular than MJ. What we can be sure of is that ballroom dancing is not as popular as it was - and there is great debate about the reasons for this. Was it something ballroom did or was it that times changed and ballroom didn't?

What worries me is that there seems to be a 'let's not make the same mistakes as ballroom' attitude in MJ. In my opinion this is not entirely healthy as it seems to take the form of 'let's not do anything they do in ballroom'. Much of what ballroom does is tried and tested and could easily be adopted for the benefit of MJ - and much of it wouldn't fit because MJ is primarily a social dance.

What I think I'm saying is, let's have an open mind about adopting what they do in ballroom


p.s. I've just noticed this is my 1,000th post - I'm not sure if that's good or bad

[Heather]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Much of what ballroom does is tried and tested and could easily be adopted for the benefit of MJ - and much of it wouldn't fit because MJ is primarily a social dance:

THE MOST IMPORTANT observation!!!!'MJ is primarily a social dance'.
I started going to Ceroc because I wanted to have FUN,
meet new people, make new friends, keep fit, improve my social life and of course learn a new type of dance.
Of course as I got more into it, I wanted to improve my dancing skills and started going to workshops in an effort to get better at it. BUT that was MY personal CHOICE.
However, the most important element for me is the FUN part.
Introducing dancing assessments, exams or whatever you want to call it would just scunner me!!!
The Education system in this country is obsessed by assessment , this is my working life (National testing etc), so I emphatically DO NOT want this to creep into my social life.
I make the assumption that most people who contribute to this Forum do so because they take their dancing seriously, let those who want to be assessed do so on a voluntary basis and let the rest of us just ENJOY ourselves!!! I think we tend to forget that although there are several hundred Forum members, there are thousands of people who just go along to their local Ceroc/modern Jive club to have a laugh, socialise, dance a few tracks and enjoy themselves. I would certainly NOT wish to impose 'assessment' of any kind on those, the vast majority of people, that would be the fastest way to lose folks (IMHO).


Heather,
X

[Martin]

Originally posted by Heather
THE MOST IMPORTANT observation!!!!'MJ is primarily a social dance'.
I started going to Ceroc because I wanted to have FUN,
meet new people, make new friends, keep fit, improve my social life and of course learn a new type of dance.
Of course as I got more into it, I wanted to improve my dancing skills and started going to workshops in an effort to get better at it. BUT that was MY personal CHOICE.
However, the most important element for me is the FUN part.
Introducing dancing assessments, exams or whatever you want to call it would just scunner me!!!
The Education system in this country is obsessed by assessment , this is my working life (National testing etc), so I emphatically DO NOT want this to creep into my social life.
I make the assumption that most people who contribute to this Forum do so because they take their dancing seriously, let those who want to be assessed do so on a voluntary basis and let the rest of us just ENJOY ourselves!!! I think we tend to forget that although there are several hundred Forum members, there are thousands of people who just go along to their local Ceroc/modern Jive club to have a laugh, socialise, dance a few tracks and enjoy themselves. I would certainly NOT wish to impose 'assessment' of any kind on those, the vast majority of people, that would be the fastest way to lose folks (IMHO).


Heather,
X

For the UK market, this is probably an OK thing, as most intermediate classes are faily "safe".
My reason for starting this thread is that in Australia the intemediate classes are far more advanced and include dips and drops which are potentially back, arm, body breakers if done incorrectly.
I have stopped doing intermediate classes where drops are involved as you get very keen beginners droping at 45 degrees to my centre of gravity - options being, hurt your back or let her go.

I also have many occations where the girl "leads" the intermediate move and "goes for it" before the correct time to do so.

We also have a "consolidation" or "freestyle" class going on at the same time as the intermediate class where students have a chance to learn in a smaller class dedicated to them. This is where the teacher has the chance to give tips and tricks and advise on the wisdom of joining the next class.
It is not a "test" more a judgement as to when is the best time to move on up.

Newcastle, Australia do this and are VERY sucessful, now Sydney is also taking up this approach in the coming year.

Being a dips and drops fan - as one that first taught your guru - Mr Lounge Lizard, I love that stuff BUT I am not going to put my body on the line.

In a perfect world ALL teachers would teach this safely - we do not live in a perfect world...

The differential between Ceroc and Ballroom is vast as there is time to practice on the night and the footwork is simple AND it is to music we can relate to, done as a full evenings entertainment in a social setting, a fantastic combination, hence the numbers coming through the doors.

Fun is number one, social is king AND lets not produce unneccesary injuries.

[Starlight Dancer]

I agree with the comments of those who want to keep Ceroc classes fun in the UK.

However I also agree about there being a lack of technical mastery amongst some intermediates.

What I'd like to see is not an introduction of exams etc into the existing classes, but perhaps a little more focus on correct technique in the classes, with perhaps the taxi dancers or other experienced dancers or spotters going round to check the technical execution of moves.

In the Cerocshops I would like to see a closer one-to-one supervision of moves especially where drops etc are involved. Usually there is some attention to this but in my experience it could go further.

Part of the problem may also be not so much with the lack of teacher assistance, but with the reluctance of students to ask for help.

Another idea is to have an optional grading system - ie people still Ceroc for fun, but those who want to work hard at improving would have the option to be graded to gain an understanding of what they need to work most on.

[Paul F]

How about then, keeping the systems exactly as they are now BUT in area A, for example, introducing a seperate night holding an inter/adv class.

The teacher will have to clear you (in a nice friendly way ) to take part in this advanced class but this can be done at a normal night.

This way, the people who are against these approval sessions can still carry on as normal as nothing will have changed but the people who want to go forward can do so of their own choosing and turn up on this seperate night.

This would satisfy everyone wouldnt it


Of course it wouldnt but i would love to see why people think it wouldnt work.

[Sylph]

Originally posted by starlightdancer
I agree with the comments of those who want to keep Ceroc classes fun in the UK.

However I also agree about there being a lack of technical mastery amongst some intermediates.

What I'd like to see is not an introduction of exams etc into the existing classes, but perhaps a little more focus on correct technique in the classes, with perhaps the taxi dancers or other experienced dancers or spotters going round to check the technical execution of moves.

In the Cerocshops I would like to see a closer one-to-one supervision of moves especially where drops etc are involved. Usually there is some attention to this but in my experience it could go further.

Part of the problem may also be not so much with the lack of teacher assistance, but with the reluctance of students to ask for help.

Another idea is to have an optional grading system - ie people still Ceroc for fun, but those who want to work hard at improving would have the option to be graded to gain an understanding of what they need to work most on.

I agree with all this. Horses for courses. In retrospect, I think I personally would have benefited from being evaluated and having some goals earlier on. Now this is beginning to make the "having fun" more fun for me.

It would be a difficult job for the teachers to try to judge who would like assistance and who would be affronted. The same general lack of guidance is in evidence in gym classes like Aerobics, Step etc. One exception, IMHO, is that safety factor should override social niceties in classes where risk of injury is higher with poor technique e.g Aerials, BodyPump. People should then get advice whether they want it or not!