How solid are your dancers?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jon
Nearly every class I go to I get asked by lots of ladies have you got this routine because most of the men haven't. The same goes for the ladies I get partnered with some can do it others can't.

Jon, I think that one phrase sums up the whole issue of this thread. At every club throughout the land I bet that phrase is being asked.

The question is, is this because the moves being taught are too advanced or taught badly, or that the punters simply aren't listenening or are incapable of getting the moves right? Either way I think it indicates that we may be doing something fundamentaly wrong ... IF we are putting forward MJ classes as a teaching environment. If its just for fun, who cares ... but it does seem we have a problem. ..... having said that, is it common place or is it it just at a few clubs?

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Gus
The question is, is this because the moves being taught are too advanced or taught badly, or that the punters simply aren't listenening or are incapable of getting the moves right? Either way I think it indicates that we may be doing something fundamentaly wrong ... IF we are putting forward MJ classes as a teaching environment. If its just for fun, who cares ... but it does seem we have a problem. ..... having said that, is it common place or is it it just at a few clubs?

When I get to the intermediate class, if I am constantly dancing with men who have got lost then i am lost also, especially if there have been more women than men and we have been standing out!
But I'm not complaining about the poor men having to remember the moves-I couldnt.
But ifI end up dancing with men who completely know what they are doing it is much more satisfying.But what to do?
Majority of men at the dances I go to are there strictly for fun.If you took the fun away we would have 3 times as many women.
Does anyone else think some of our threads go round and round, mainly because they get so long we don't read them from the beginning.....I am particularly bad at repeating myself-sorry folks!

Fruitcake

[Gus]

Originally posted by fruitcake

Does anyone else think some of our threads go round and round, mainly because they get so long we don't read them from the beginning
Fruitcake

I would say that this thread is typical of those where there isnt an answer ... just shades of grey and personal prefences.

Its about the desire for fun against the desire to dance better (whatever they may actualy mean). The balance can vary from person to person or even with the same person over the passage of time. I wouldn't fret about threads going round and around ... sometimes it provokes people to come at it from a different angle or simply come up some interesting and insightfull comment

[Dotse]

I think part of the reason intermediate + moves are sometimes hard to get is that many students are trying to mimic quite complex movements without a deep enough understanding (either logical or instinctual) of their own body and how it works in a dance sense. Even if you are quite coordinated and sporty it can be very challenging.

I have been to different Dance Schools and found plenty of moves hard to get, and at times its quite frustrating (not much fun actually..mmmm). But, later when my partner explains that your WEIGHT should be here at this section, and that you don't allow the lady to travel to far to the right or the next part won't go well, and you need to have this tension then let it go to allow for her body movement, you move away from the lady here not towards to add an illusion of movement blaa blaa blaa.

The point is.. once a few IMPORTANT points are explained well make it much easier. The important points seem to relate to several underlying dance concepts..With all due respect to teachers (and I am sure there are exceptions) and this is meant for me as well, many teachers simply don't have the ability or choose not to go into the depth required to help students learn enough about 'dancing' to help future learning. I am still relatively inexperienced but when things are explained well to me , lights go off and buzzers ring upstairs and it actually becomes much simpler NOT more complicated....and to me simpler equates to more fun. And the beauty is you can apply genearl ideas to other moves.


The dancers that have a lot of experience and know "dance concepts" wIll pick up most moves fairly easy because they know either instinctively or consciously the keys to having moves work..its not because they have a good memory (although this would play a role too).

I think there ARE answers out there if we look for them---I do not beleive fun and an increase in the depth of training are mutually exclusive......they can compliment each other. If managed well people will still be up and dancing quickly and having fun........its too late at intermediate + to teach the complex move and the concepts........food for thought.......

Optimistically yours,

Dotse

[Starlight Dancer]

Originally posted by Gus
Jon, I think that one phrase sums up the whole issue of this thread. At every club throughout the land I bet that phrase is being asked.

The question is, is this because the moves being taught are too advanced or taught badly, or that the punters simply aren't listenening or are incapable of getting the moves right? Either way I think it indicates that we may be doing something fundamentaly wrong ... IF we are putting forward MJ classes as a teaching environment. If its just for fun, who cares ... but it does seem we have a problem. ..... having said that, is it common place or is it it just at a few clubs?

We sometimes get this happening at our West Midlands venues. I don't think the classes are too advanced at all, but I do think that people are at different stages in their development. When I first moved up into the intermediate classes I was getting the moves wrong. The same can be said for the beginners who start a beginners class for the first time and have the same trouble. I don't think it's anything to worry about. Yes, there may be people who aren't exactly new to the intermediate classes who are still getting it wrong now and then, but the fact is that some people are just quicker on the uptake than others. Sometimes these people will be corrected by their partners but if they haven't got the move by the end of the class then they have the choice to ask someone who has got it to demonstrate it.

One problem may be that the moves are not always explained by the teachers in sufficient detail, and sometimes this is because certain points seem obvious when you are demonstrating the move, though they may not be obvious to everyone who is learning it. Occasionally there is also a problem in a packed hall if not everyone has a good view of the stage, or if people are facing away from the stage as sometimes happens.

[Gus]

Originally posted by starlightdancer
One problem may be that the moves are not always explained by the teachers in sufficient detail, and sometimes this is because certain points seem obvious when you are demonstrating the move, though they may not be obvious to everyone who is learning it.

Without restarting a debate thats had been before ... this comes back to the question as to whether you can succesfully teach 4 intermediate moves in 30 mimutes ... lets just leave it that views differ

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
Without restarting a debate thats had been before ...

Alas, he spoke too soon ...

... this comes back to the question as to whether you can succesfully teach 4 intermediate moves in 30 mimutes

I take it that "successful" means that the students have learned it. Given that all of the teachers I have seen can do the moves correctly more often than not, and can explain well enough what they did, then it depends on the students.

If we had been "successfully" taught then most members of this forum would be able to lead and follow several hundred Ceroc moves and name them.

The usual elements of teaching are not there, assessment and revisions after periods of hours and days. The intermediate class is just an opportunity to learn and interact socially.

It is just possible that Ceroc & clones are as successful as they are because of this format. Any moves to "improve" standards are more likely to be teacher and expert driven, rather than for the average customer. I think general class nights should remain as they are (though they may be changing as from Jan 10th 2004) and leave the "proper" tuition to dance schools, workshops and weekenders.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dotse


I know in Sydney with Nicky Haslam's Ceroc and Modern Jive there are certain levels down there that need to be acheived, for instance they have a 6 week advanced course (the fisrt I have heard of)...obviously this is not open to everyone, I think they have a card system but not sure. Also they have competitrion workshops,....Nicky seems to be very innovative...the website is definitely worth a read....

Website is www.ceroc.com.au if you're interested.

Yes, there's a card system: blue for intermediate/advanced, gold for advanced. Each venue has a monthly intermediate/advanced class. Anyone can join the class, but there's a separate rotation for people with I/A cards. Less frequently there's an advanced class. It's only open to people with a card (I/A or A), with a normal class run in parallel in another room. Folks are allowed to stick with a fixed partner for this one if they like.

It works out to an honour system because they're not very police state about checking cards. It almost never bugs me learning moves with more beginnerish girls, but I think the system really reduces frustration for the more advanced girls.

I'm very happy that Nicky seems to be keen to at least try different things and see how they work, and that she seems keen to improve the level of dancing generally.

[RobC]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
though they may be changing as from Jan 10th 2004)

Errm, what happened / might have happened on the 10th that would change things ?
What have I missed ?

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by RobC
Errm, what happened / might have happened on the 10th that would change things ?
What have I missed ?

I believe there is a teacher update on that date.