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Thread: Blues Baby Blues

  1. #121
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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that there's more mystery surrouding "Blues" dancing than there is in the mainstream dances - and I'm including Lindy Hop in "mainstream" as it's a well known dance.
    And I'd say that you were wrong about that. When I began Lindy, I thought I knew from watching the dance what the dance would like. I was utterly wrong, and my preconceptions made it harder to learn than it should have been. In your terms, looking at the outside of the box gave me very little clue as to what was in it. And so it is with most dances I've tried.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that there's more mystery surrouding "Blues" dancing than there is in the mainstream dances - and I'm including Lindy Hop in "mainstream" as it's a well known dance.
    Well I guess the thing is, beyond "wiggling with cuddles", I genuinely don't know what "MJ Blues" is as a dance.

    And, considering that we've had this exact discussion, on this forum, many many times before, the only conclusion I can reach is that is that frankly, neither does anyone else.

    If "MJ Blues" were defined, then you could go to (say) a Blues class by Rocky, one by Nigel and Nina. one by Marc and Rachel, one by Howard, and then one by Sarah White, and you'd find that there'd be some overlap between all these classes.

    Of course, they might have different approaches, but they'd use similar terminology, they'd have agreed conventions, and you'd be able to progress "along the blues path" with a mixture of classes. You can take this approach with WCS, AT, MJ and other dance forms. But you can't do this with MJ Blues teachers; they're all teaching different things.

    As for competitions, there was a "Crystal Blues" comp on last night - and the "rules" were pretty much simply an audience vote - there wasn't even an attempt to define what the dance is. Blimey, even the X-factor is better defined than that.

    As Blues dancing is not a performance dance, dancers will not be required to perform to judges -just dance as the music inspires you to, on an intimate Blues-room floor. Everyone attending will be given their voting chips and information about things to look for while watching (musicality, interpretation, style, aesthetics, etc).
    So, Blues is not a performance dance, but there's a competition? How can that work?

    In the MJ world, "Blues" is not a dance form, it's a brand attached to make things sound sexy.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Many Blues teachers have told me, Blues is not MJ danced slowly
    But I think that’s exactly what it is
    I have incorporated nearly every blues move I have been taught, in to my normal dance
    And certainly incorporate normal MJ moves into my blues dancing
    Blues is a type of Music
    And blues is what you dance to blues music
    And it should only be done after midnight or on a Sunday afternoon

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    And blues is what you dance to blues music
    Agree

    And it should only be done after midnight or on a Sunday afternoon
    Erm NO!

    Blues Room open 24/7 wouldn't be open long enough for me!!! Good music, good dancers, enough energy, give me the Blues room anytime of the day or night

    WT

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Many Blues teachers have told me, Blues is not MJ danced slowly
    But I think that’s exactly what it is
    I have incorporated nearly every blues move I have been taught, in to my normal dance
    And certainly incorporate normal MJ moves into my blues dancing
    Blues is a type of Music
    And blues is what you dance to blues music
    And it should only be done after midnight or on a Sunday afternoon

    This is exactly my thinking too.

    However, there are people who will tell you that you're wrong. That it's a clearly defined dance - but that they don't have a definition.

    IMHO it's all smoke and mirrors to sell workshops. I've only attended Swinging the Blues once. It was a great day of MJ workshops which were taught to bluesy music. Very different to your average MJ workshop and more likely to appeal to the experienced MJ dancer who wants to do more - nonetheless, it was still MJ*.

    *Apart from the Tango bit taught by Lucky. But that wasn't billed as "Blues".

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Just a few random observations from a part-time wannabe Blues dancer......and having attended Saturday nite at the Crystal Blues event:

    - I know Sara Whites classes/workshops distinguish between 'close hold' and 'intimate close hold'. I can only guess at the difference: perhaps it is a bit like the AT hold vs close hold.

    - I wish there was more Blues music at Blues events - or at least more from the left field - and more with breaks. For me, 'Sweat' is the archetypal Blues room track. Interesting that both at Berko Blues when I was last there, and Sara Whites on Sat, they both played Lucas Gabreel..........which is a current Main room staple round here.......do I dance any differently? Er no!

    - Discussing with a forumite on Sat.....we both agreed that we weren't 'All nite Blues dancers'. For me, especially I want some more uptempo, uplifting music from time to time (ie Main room) - and at one point on Sat it got a bit into that 'lovey-dovey-soppy' music mode. (There is also a Blues 'slash-your-wrists' type music which is more prevalent in AT - which again is an off-put for me).

    - Is Blues MJ danced slowly? Not according to teachers I have heard (eg. Howard). It can mean more interpretation and expression - even our old favourite word 'musicality'. Some MJ moves probably don't lend themselves to being done slowly, or for me are just too associated with faster beats (eg. Archies rolls for me are for a rock 'n roll track).

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    IMHO it's all smoke and mirrors to sell workshops. I've only attended Swinging the Blues once. It was a great day of MJ workshops which were taught to bluesy music. Very different to your average MJ workshop and more likely to appeal to the experienced MJ dancer who wants to do more - nonetheless, it was still MJ*.

    *Apart from the Tango bit taught by Lucky. But that wasn't billed as "Blues".
    If you are talking solely about MJ-based blues workshops, I bow to your wisdom on the matter, although I would suggest that "Very different to your average MJ workshop and more likely to appeal to the experienced MJ dancer who wants to do more" is a far far cry from "smoke and mirrors to sell workshops".

    If, however, you're talking about workshops such as those taught at Blues Baby Blues - which is, after all, the event initially under discussion in this thread - well, you have already said that you have never attended any such events and, I assume, never done any such workshops. Workshops not taught in an MJ context, not influenced by MJ in any way. In which case, you are not, if you'll forgive me saying so, in any position to judge.

    You note that blues dance does not have any definitions which you find convincing, and I agree that it's hard to find comprehensive definitions, but perhaps this will help a little (from iDance.net).
    As diverse as the music itself, Blues dancing is composed of one and two step movements, focuses on improvisation and a close connection to one's partner. Like Tango, partners generally stay in closed position or close embrace for a majority of the dance, with some space for open position and breakaways.

    Traditional partnered styles such as Jookin', Ballroomin', Slow Drag vary based on music, whereas modern Blues is often a fusion of complimentary dances, borrowing from Argentine Tango, Swing, Hip Hop, and vintage Blues. In addition to the partnered dancing, Solo Blues is a style of Vernacular Jazz dancing to slow tempos and is performed by an individual.
    This is nicely complemented by the following from Bluesdance.com:
    Unlike Tango, however, Blues is driven by a deep pulse found in the music, and this pulse drives the movement as well as the feel or spirit of the dance, which is much "earthier" than the "airy" and light feel of Tango.

    We have often described Blues Dancing as similar to a slow swing dance where "hyperconnectedness" is the focus rather than "moves" or footwork. This is, of course, an oversimplification.
    I'll add to that that while it there is a strong emphasis on the freeform and hyper-connected nature of the dance, it does incorporate a number of blues basics, such as , amongst others.

    It has its own look, its own identity, its own feel, and is very much its own dance.

    As an example of some blues which couldn't possibly be taken for anything else (least of all MJ), . Enjoy

  8. #128
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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    If, however, you're talking about workshops such as those taught at Blues Baby Blues - which is, after all, the event initially under discussion in this thread - well, you have already said that you have never attended any such events and, I assume, never done any such workshops. Workshops not taught in an MJ context, not influenced by MJ in any way. In which case, you are not, if you'll forgive me saying so, in any position to judge.
    Andy is perfectly entitled to judge, just less likely that his judgement will carry any weight in that context.

    My personal definition of MJ Blues (I know no other form) would be 'dancing that's uncomfortable with the lights up'

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    - I know Sara Whites classes/workshops distinguish between 'close hold' and 'intimate close hold'.
    The mind boggles. Is 'close hold' = you have to buy them dinner after, but 'intimate close hold' is where you have to marry them?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    - Is Blues MJ danced slowly? Not according to teachers I have heard (eg. Howard). It can mean more interpretation and expression - even our old favourite word 'musicality'.
    But, call me crazy, but is that not simply "dancing to the music"?

    Obviously, you need to modify movements for tempo changes - and obviously, if you don't have a fast beat, you need to work out a style of dancing which is not so dependent on accordion-type compression / tension movements to mark the beat. But, again, that's still Modern Jive - it's just modified to a particular tempo of music.

    (And yes, many people get this horribly wrong, and can look at if they're dancing in slow motion or "moonwalking".)

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    -Some MJ moves probably don't lend themselves to being done slowly.
    Most of them, I imagine.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I know Sara Whites classes/workshops distinguish between 'close hold' and 'intimate close hold'. I can only guess at the difference: perhaps it is a bit like the AT hold vs close hold.
    Having recently done a Sara White Blues Workshop, I can explain the difference in her terms. She explained that the "intimate close hold" would be mainly reserved for very close friends/partners etc. The "close hold" would be to keep sufficient distance between the couple such that a baby could be retained between the couple. To my way of thinking, this would mean that the frame should be consistent, that too much pressure would crush the baby while not enough would enable the baby to drop. Is that clear now?
    Last edited by fandangle; 20th-September-2010 at 03:31 PM.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    But, call me crazy, but is that not simply "dancing to the music"?

    Obviously, you need to modify movements for tempo changes - and obviously, if you don't have a fast beat, you need to work out a style of dancing which is not so dependent on accordion-type compression / tension movements to mark the beat. But, again, that's still Modern Jive - it's just modified to a particular tempo of music.
    Yes David, "you are crazy" . And it is "dancing to the music" you're right.

    I guess my thought is that 'Blues' music gives more opportunity - particularly to the follower to 'do' stuff: walk, shine, shimmy, wiggle, tweak and tickle. Compare and contrast that to (say) dancing to (say) a Ceroc Cheshunt Eurobeat Boing Boing track with no breaks..........

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by fandangle View Post
    To my way of thinking, this would mean that the frame should be consistent, that too much pressure would crush the baby while not enough would enable the baby to drop. Is that clear now?
    I imagine it's very rewarding, when trying this for real, to get through your first dance without much actual damage to the baby. Even if you broke a few while learning to get it right.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by fandangle View Post
    The "close hold" would be to keep sufficient distance between the couple such that a baby could be retained between the couple.
    Whereas, presumably, intimate close hold might cause a baby to be retained between the couple...

    Quote Originally Posted by fandangle View Post
    To my way of thinking, this would mean that the frame should be consistent, that too much pressure would crush the baby while not enough would enable the baby to drop. Is that clear now?
    It's clear. And yes, it sounds like the difference between AT Open and Close hold in some ways, although I assume the posture is different.

    I wonder if any other MJ Blues teachers use that terminology / distinction?

    Anyone?

  14. #134
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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I guess my thought is that 'Blues' music gives more opportunity - particularly to the follower to 'do' stuff: walk, shine, shimmy, wiggle, tweak and tickle.
    Sure - again, that seems fairly straightforward; slower music allows more space for interpretation.

    But again, that's simply "dancing to the music". That's not a new dance form, that's simply modifying the way you dance MJ, to meet the requirements of the music.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Compare and contrast that to (say) dancing to (say) a Ceroc Cheshunt Eurobeat Boing Boing track with no breaks..........
    Ah, happy days

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I wonder if any other MJ Blues teachers use that terminology / distinction?
    No idea.

    Our own approach is not to make that distinction at all, but to teach easy techniques that allow the follower and lead to establish a close hold distance that they are both happy with.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    No idea.

    Our own approach is not to make that distinction at all, but to teach easy techniques that allow the follower and lead to establish a close hold distance that they are both happy with.
    I admire your attempts to keep this thread on topic

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Our own approach is not to make that distinction at all,
    Isn't that throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

    I'll get my coat...

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Isn't that throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
    Well - now the baby's clean, it's time it learned to fly...

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Good grief are you lot still going on about this?! Blues is a dance that is defined by close holds, is lead by the music and often includes elements of improvisation by both partners.
    Interesting. The rarity of close holds was one reason I was a little surprised at the winners of the Ceroc Blues competition last year.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Interesting. The rarity of close holds was one reason I was a little surprised at the winners of the Ceroc Blues competition last year.
    I didn't see the video of that. I saw the 2007 one - the one that Dale & Sarah won - and I remember watching the vid of D&S. They looked good. They definitely deserved to win, and from what I recall they were in close hold most of the time.

    Most of the other competitors definitely were not - in fact, most of them looked like they were, in one memorable phrase, "moonwalking" (and not in the Michael Jackson sense), or dancing in slow motion.

    Interesting, if you we look at this year's "Breeze" page, you see that there's a "Blues showcase" event...

    Whilst the judging panel for Breeze is well-chosen, and includes a lot of good people, there's still no definition of Blues Dancing, beyond:
    # The essence of Blues dancing is close and connected and couples will be expected to demonstrate this throughout the competition.
    # Whilst it will be acceptable for people to interpret the music to adopt fusion styles of Blues (Swing Blues, Jive Blues, West Coast Blues) dancing an outright non blues style will result in disqualification. This is not a West Coast Swing or Modern Jive competition

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