Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 146

Thread: Blues Baby Blues

  1. #101
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    What about if you make a distinction between footwork technique and footwork patterns?
    Well, there's "walking technique" - in fact, that's most of Tango.

    I still don't know if that's "footwork" though. It took me several years to work out that walking is not about how the feet move. Tango is not about the feet; although unfortunately it seems that one has to work that out for oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Even if there's few defined patterns (could ochos be said to incorporate footwork patterns?),
    An ocho is a step and a pivot.

    Admittedly, yes, there are enhancements and decorations which make it look like a pattern. And the dissociation element required makes it more complex. But fundamentally, it's a step and a pivot.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    the footwork technique - how you step, how you transfer weight, how you connect with the floor - in a dance like AT must be extremely important, surely?
    Yes - as I said, that's pretty much the entire basis of the dance. But to me, that's not "footwork technique", that's "technique". So I'm not at all sure that "footwork" is a strong component of AT. But then, I'm not sure what "footwork" means. So it may be simply a terminology issue.

  2. #102
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Blues is a dance that is defined by close holds, is lead by the music and often includes elements of improvisation by both partners.
    You've not defined "close hold", you've not defined "the music", nor have you defined any elements of posture. Salon Tango fits those criteria - as does bachata, columbian Salsa, and Zydeco.

    So whilst it excludes some dance forms, your definition could do with a bit more definition.

    And it's "led", not "lead". People alway gets that wrong.

  3. #103
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,426
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Skitt's Law:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    And it's "led", not "lead". People alway gets that wrong.

  4. #104
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Fife.
    Posts
    5,701
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes - as I said, that's pretty much the entire basis of the dance. But to me, that's not "footwork technique", that's "technique". So I'm not at all sure that "footwork" is a strong component of AT. But then, I'm not sure what "footwork" means. So it may be simply a terminology issue.
    My understanding of leading an och would be to put my partner in place, feel her weight on the correct leg, then disassociate my chest from my hips and lead her with my chest.

    This would be technique.

    As it involves leading, I would say it's lead and follow technique.

    Now, there is a lead and follow aspect to walking in Tango, certainly. However, there is also, e.g. the preference for the ladies' ankles to come together asap, or to arc or curve the path of ur feet as U walk or change direction, etc (not the best description but hopefully U know what I'm referring to) so as your ankles meet at the point of passing, etc.... when stepping to the side, placing the inside part of the ball of ur foot where it meets your big toe as the first point of contact, etc...

    These would be technique.

    They would also come under "footwork", I feel.

  5. #105
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    My understanding of leading an och would be to put my partner in place, feel her weight on the correct leg, then disassociate my chest from my hips and lead her with my chest.

    This would be technique.

    As it involves leading, I would say it's lead and follow technique.
    That sounds about right to me.

    And as it's perfectly possible to do this with without moving your feet at all, there's no "footwork" required - at least for a forward ocho.

    So, plenty of technique, but zero footwork - a good example.


    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Now, there is a lead and follow aspect to walking in Tango, certainly. However, there is also, e.g. the preference for the ladies' ankles to come together asap, or to arc or curve the path of ur feet as U walk or change direction, etc (not the best description but hopefully U know what I'm referring to) so as your ankles meet at the point of passing, etc.... when stepping to the side, placing the inside part of the ball of ur foot where it meets your big toe as the first point of contact, etc...

    These would be technique.

    They would also come under "footwork", I feel.
    Ah yes, I get you.

    Yes, that makes sense. So yes, in that sense, Tango has plenty of technique for footwork.

    But you know what? Ive decided I simply don't like the word.

  6. #106
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    1,895
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    You've not defined "close hold", you've not defined "the music", nor have you defined any elements of posture. Salon Tango fits those criteria - as does bachata, columbian Salsa, and Zydeco.

    So whilst it excludes some dance forms, your definition could do with a bit more definition.

    And it's "led", not "lead". People alway gets that wrong.
    err... close hold is when you hold your partner close to you... what part of that was confusing? And why do you have to define the music or posture? It's freestyle danced to any form of music (all right slower music) and mostly you dance it standing in an upright position.. Now that's not to say that there are forms of music which aid the expression of the dance, but it's not exclusive to any particular kind.

  7. #107
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    That sounds about right to me.

    And as it's perfectly possible to do this with without moving your feet at all, there's no "footwork" required - at least for a forward ocho.

    So, plenty of technique, but zero footwork - a good example.
    You don't have to move your feet for there to be footwork. You can simply change your weight distribution.

    On the subject of "Blues" being a dance form. It obviously is unique. To be a dance form there needs to be a way of describing that dance which describes it's unique nature.

    Consider MJ, we all know what it is when we see it. But describing it in a way that doesn't describe any other dance is another matter.

    Q. Why bother to describe it when you know what it is when you see it?

    A. Teaching and competitions.

    I'm only going to talk about MJ & competitions. When I was writing the rules for Britrock I put in "The dance must be clearly recognisable as Modern Jive". This left me with the question "what is Modern Jive?" It would be difficult to disqualify someone for not doing MJ if all you could say was "I know it when I see it and that's not 'it' ".

    How does this apply to "Blues"? There's "Blues" competitions. The organisers and judges need to know what they're judging and they need to be able to say "sorry, that's not blues" to fabulous dancers who look great, wow the audience but aren't doing "Blues".

    And then there's teaching. When someone teaches "Blues" they must have some idea what they're teaching from a technical viewpoint. Otherwise they could simply put on bluesy music and teach anything they fancied and call it "Blues" (I will, of course, be running "McBlues" workshops )

  8. #108
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    err... close hold is when you hold your partner close to you... what part of that was confusing?
    There are many ways to hold your partner close to you. I can think of several dances which have close hold - and in each, the actual hold is quite different. So saying "close hold" is pretty imprecise - it's not much better than saying "hold".

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    And why do you have to define the music or posture?
    Because they are both integral to the dance form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It's freestyle danced to any form of music (all right slower music)
    and mostly you dance it standing in an upright position.. Now that's not to say that there are forms of music which aid the expression of the dance, but it's not exclusive to any particular kind.
    Again, you've simply defined a range of possible dance forms.

    This approach doesn't really help support the argument that Blues is a dance form. Blimey, even MJ is more well-defined than that.

  9. #109
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You don't have to move your feet for there to be footwork. You can simply change your weight distribution.
    Thanks

    But my statement stands - I can lead a full forward ocho, or other combinations, without moving my feet or changing my weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    On the subject of "Blues" being a dance form. It obviously is unique. To be a dance form there needs to be a way of describing that dance which describes it's unique nature.
    Yup, that's my point above.

    If it's a unique form, it needs to have unique characteristics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And then there's teaching. When someone teaches "Blues" they must have some idea what they're teaching from a technical viewpoint. Otherwise they could simply put on bluesy music and teach anything they fancied and call it "Blues"
    Surely such a thing could never happen.

    DJBlues, coming to a venue near you...

  10. #110
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Thanks

    But my statement stands - I can lead a full forward ocho, or other combinations, without moving my feet or changing my weight.
    I suppose you could. But would it still be AT?

  11. #111
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Surely such a thing could never happen.

    DJBlues, coming to a venue near you...
    My guess is that it happens all the time. And the people who are doing it are quite happy that there's no clear definition of the dance - it means they can teach what they like. Say it with confidence and IT WILL BE BLUES!

  12. #112
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    On the subject of "Blues" being a dance form. It obviously is unique. To be a dance form there needs to be a way of describing that dance which describes it's unique nature.

    ...much commonsensical stuff...
    Well - if you really want to know just what blues (the US-derived version) is, and to understand a bit more about its admittedly ighly technical nature, why don't you come to a suitable blues event where you'll be able to have all your questions answered, plus a whole lot more? IIRC, there's an excellent event coming up in London in November - called...

    let me think for a moment...

    Oh yeah - Blues Baby Blues.

    See what I did there?

  13. #113
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    1,895
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    There are many ways to hold your partner close to you. I can think of several dances which have close hold - and in each, the actual hold is quite different. So saying "close hold" is pretty imprecise - it's not much better than saying "hold".


    Because they are both integral to the dance form?


    Again, you've simply defined a range of possible dance forms.

    This approach doesn't really help support the argument that Blues is a dance form. Blimey, even MJ is more well-defined than that.
    So what we've gathered is that the elements that make up Blues dancing are not well enough defined for you because you prefer convention over freeform expression. That's fine, that's just an insecurity issue which I'm sure you'll get over some day...

    Try defining contemporary dance... it most definitely is a dance form but is not limited by foot patterns, movement or style. But just like Blues, you (well, I should say 'one') know it when you see it.

  14. #114
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I suppose you could. But would it still be AT?
    Yep. Happens all the time in milongas.

    Given the differential between forwards and back ochos, it's much easier to lead a small forward ocho than a small back ocho - back ochos more-or-less require either some weight transfer or step... OK, sorry, I'm boring myself now.

  15. #115
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    So what we've gathered is that the elements that make up Blues dancing are not well enough defined for you because you prefer convention over freeform expression.
    They're not well enough defined for me to make it an actual dance form, rather than, as the great ESG put it, "cuddling with wiggles". But that's because I suspect there's no such thing as "MJ blues" which can be defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Try defining contemporary dance... it most definitely is a dance form but is not limited by foot patterns, movement or style.
    I don't know enough about contemporary dance to comment.

    Luckily, we're not discussing that. We're discussing whether "MJ Blues" is a dance form or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    But just like Blues, you (well, I should say 'one') know it when you see it.
    The "I don't know much about Art but I know what I like" is the typical response of someone who can't actually define something.

    I call that kind of statement "ignorant". But that's probably me being insecure again.

  16. #116
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yep. Happens all the time in milongas.

    Given the differential between forwards and back ochos, it's much easier to lead a small forward ocho than a small back ocho - back ochos more-or-less require either some weight transfer or step... OK, sorry, I'm boring myself now.
    The point I was making was that it isn't AT. It's just a building block for the whole dance. Just standing there with your weight on one foot leading back ochos isn't AT. Therefore it isn't AT!

  17. #117
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    1,895
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I don't know enough about contemporary dance to comment...
    Well you clearly don't know anything about Blues either, but that hasn't stopped you commenting... and commenting... and commenting..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Luckily, we're not discussing that. We're discussing whether "MJ Blues" is a dance form or not.

    The "I don't know much about Art but I know what I like" is the typical response of someone who can't actually define something.
    Ok, so are you really seriously saying that when you watch some of the clips that have been posted that you can't define a difference in what the dance looks like over other dance forms? The US ones use a lateral basic weight shift movement defined with a pulse, pulse and a bit of skipping and the MJ ones show a lateral weight shift movement with a sway and sway. As opposed to MJ which is in and out, lindy which is in and out and round and round and AT which is just walking all over the place.. Sure all the others can have elements of a side to side weight shift, but not as their 'basic' form.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I call that kind of statement "ignorant". But that's probably me being insecure again.
    I call that kind of statement it's bleeding obvious to most other people other than those pedants who are so tied by convention that they have to put everything into a box, with a lid and instructions printed on the side about how you open it..

  18. #118
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I call that kind of statement it's bleeding obvious to most other people other than those pedants who are so tied by convention that they have to put everything into a box, with a lid and instructions printed on the side about how you open it..
    It seems to me that "Blues" is different. The ingredients and opening instructions are printed on the inside of the box. You have to pay someone to open the box and show you what's inside - and then maybe, just maybe, you'll like it.

    This reminds me of the Masons. You had to join to find out what it was all about. You didn't know until you'd joined, done the course, paid the fees ...

    .. at least you don't have to get an "I love Blues" tatto on your willy

  19. #119
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    IThe ingredients and opening instructions are printed on the inside of the box. You have to pay someone to open the box and show you what's inside - and then maybe, just maybe, you'll like it.
    The same is true of every single dance I have ever tried, with the possible exception of MJ. Were it not true of a particular dance, the implication is that one could learn that dance by watching people dance it, then doing the same moves by imitation. I've seen that approach tried with several dances, and the results have never been pretty.

  20. #120
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    The same is true of every single dance I have ever tried, with the possible exception of MJ. Were it not true of a particular dance, the implication is that one could learn that dance by watching people dance it, then doing the same moves by imitation. I've seen that approach tried with several dances, and the results have never been pretty.
    I think that there's more mystery surrouding "Blues" dancing than there is in the mainstream dances - and I'm including Lindy Hop in "mainstream" as it's a well known dance.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?
    By Gus in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 15th-April-2009, 02:14 PM
  2. Swinging The Blues 09
    By Gus in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 23rd-February-2009, 10:30 PM
  3. Finally, an Accurate Definition of Blues !!
    By StokeBloke in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 8th-June-2008, 05:41 PM
  4. How To Sing The Blues
    By Cruella in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 30th-January-2007, 04:00 PM
  5. How to sing the blues!
    By Lory in forum Fun and Games
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11th-June-2004, 09:52 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •