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Thread: Blues Baby Blues

  1. #81
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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    As an aside, if you used to call it musicality, what do you call it now?
    I still call it musicality. However, if we are to judge it by the clip I watched, it seems that MJ danced to interesting music with good connection, musicality and a few ladies hijacks is now called "blues".



    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Based on what I've learned elsewhere, I've very much changed my mind on that - I would say there's no pretence - it is very much its own dance.
    At last! Someone who's worked out that it's a dance. All we need to do now is clearly define the footwork and it's variations.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I still call it musicality. However, if we are to judge it by the clip I watched, it seems that MJ danced to interesting music with good connection, musicality and a few ladies hijacks is now called "blues".
    Assuming we're talking about the same clip ( ), I see no MJ in it whatsoever. Not in the footwork, nor the connection techniques, nor any of the moves... People are using a shapes that are similar to some used in MJ. That's about it, and the same can be said of many partner dances (Lindy, WCS, Salsa etc etc etc etc)
    Would you mind saying where in the clip you see the following: MJ moves, MJ footwork, hijacking, and / or any other MJ aspects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    At last! Someone who's worked out that it's a dance.
    Oh - I think a lot of people worked that out before me. The US blues dance community, for example. Not to mention all the other blues dance communities. OK - judging from this conversation, not quite all. The vast majority, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    All we need to do now is clearly define the footwork and it's variations.
    Why? Do you believe that in order to be a dance in its own right, it needs those things? Myself, I wouldn't say that's the case. Mind you - while blues dance has a lot of freeform aspects, you might be surprised at the number of traditional steps and patterns that it can lay claim to.

    Question for you. Outside of the MJ world, how much have you done in the way of blues workshops?

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Assuming we're talking about the same clip ( ), I see no MJ in it whatsoever. Not in the footwork, nor the connection techniques, nor any of the moves... People are using a shapes that are similar to some used in MJ. That's about it, and the same can be said of many partner dances (Lindy, WCS, Salsa etc etc etc etc)
    MJ in it's basic form has walking footwork with a step on every beat. The lady/follower is stepping right on the 1 left on the 2. This seems to be going on at least half of the time in the clip.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Oh - I think a lot of people worked that out before me. The US blues dance community, for example. Not to mention all the other blues dance communities. OK - judging from this conversation, not quite all. The vast majority, however.
    A link was posted to a definition on here. It wasn't the definition of the dance. Just a discussion of the philosophy behind the dance - in the same way, you could write about the Paso Doble as "The man is the bullfighter and the lady is the cloak. It's a dramatic dance with passion and posturing. Costumes are, etc, etc." But that's not the definition of how the dance fits the music and nobody could really have a go at the dance having read about it's philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Question for you. Outside of the MJ world, how much have you done in the way of blues workshops?
    I wasn't talking about my experience of Blues. I was talking about my impression of a particular clip.

    As it happens, I've attended the Swinging the Blues event once. As far as I could make out it was MJ with attitude - however, I did see the ValFace(TM).

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    MJ in it's basic form has walking footwork with a step on every beat. The lady/follower is stepping right on the 1 left on the 2. This seems to be going on at least half of the time in the clip.
    Just because it has similar footwork, doesn't make it the same dance, does it? Besides, as Stray says, why do we actually need to categorise things, and assign footwork (however basic) patterns to it. If the people that do it want to call it blues, why are you worried about trying to prove to them that it's modern jive.

    Anyhow, if blues in that form has been danced prior to 1982 (ish), maybe what we dance is blues with less attitude, and there is no dance called modern jive.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    The rules for Blues Champs at Breeze says
    The essence of Blues dancing is close and connected
    which seems fair enough
    no mention of footwork

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Just because it has similar footwork, doesn't make it the same dance, does it?
    No, it's only the same dance if it's got the same footwork. Most of the time it's the same footwork so most of the time it's the same - that doesn't mean identical, just similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Besides, as Stray says, why do we actually need to categorise things, and assign footwork (however basic) patterns to it. If the people that do it want to call it blues, why are you worried about trying to prove to them that it's modern jive.
    I think that you really do need to know how a dance works to be able to teach it effectively. You need to be able to deconstruct that dance into it's component parts and teach each component.

    I'm not trying to prove that Blues is MJ. I'm asking people what defines the dance. So far I've got a load of stuff about attitude and passion. You could say that about Argentine Tango - but you can also say that AT has clearly defined footwork.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Does anybody know the track in the steel city blues clip.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    The rules for Blues Champs at Breeze says

    which seems fair enough
    no mention of footwork
    If you are moving your feet to the beat you will have footwork. All you need is someone to tell you how that footwork fits the beat.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Does anybody know the track in the steel city blues clip.
    Yep - turns out I actually have it (and use it - thought it seemed familiar, but I just couldn't place it earlier) - it's Algiers Hoodoo Woman by Dr Michael White. eMusic link here.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Anyhow, if blues in that form has been danced prior to 1982 (ish), maybe what we dance is blues with less attitude, and there is no dance called modern jive.
    I think this would be fabulous if it were true. It would end the "who invented it" argument between LeRoc, Ceroc and anybody else who was around in 1982.

    Of course there's Bug to consider. It's the same footwork as MJ but progresses anti-clockwise around the floor.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    MJ in it's basic form has walking footwork with a step on every beat. The lady/follower is stepping right on the 1 left on the 2. This seems to be going on at least half of the time in the clip.
    MJ doesn't have the constant timing variations or little bits of syncopation. Myself, I see little resemblence in the footwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I wasn't talking about my experience of Blues. I was talking about my impression of a particular clip.
    But you are talking about what Blue is, and what it is not in very broad terms. You can't be basing that on just one clip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As it happens, I've attended the Swinging the Blues event once. As far as I could make out it was MJ with attitude - however, I did see the ValFace(TM).
    I've only been to StB a couple of times, and that was a few years ago, but back then, I'd still have classed that as chiefly MJ blues. Has it changed now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    If you are moving your feet to the beat you will have footwork. All you need is someone to tell you how that footwork fits the beat.
    I#m pretty sure you don't think that's all there is to footwork...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that you really do need to know how a dance works to be able to teach it effectively. You need to be able to deconstruct that dance into it's component parts and teach each component.
    Absolutely, and blues is no exception. You just can't break it down the way you would an MJ class, but we can and do break it down nonetheless, and often to a much finer, more technique-based level.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So far I've got a load of stuff about attitude and passion. You could say that about Argentine Tango - but you can also say that AT has clearly defined footwork.
    Ummm... really?

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Ummm... really?
    Sorry, there's clearly defined basic footwork and loads of variations. Just like most dances.

    The thing that raises my hackles is the dance teacher who says "there is no footwork". If you're moving your feet to a beat there's footwork and it's usually got a basic pattern for every dance.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The thing that raises my hackles is the dance teacher who says "there is no footwork".
    I think we're pretty well aware of that by now. Trust me on this . OTOH, I don't think Mr Bailey's saying that (unless he's playing a fairly unsubtle game of Pavlov's McGregor ).

    There are dances, however, where there's no set footwork. Lindy's one - there's more footwork technique than you can shake a stick at, and a gazillion and one footwork patterns / footwork options one can use in a dance, but there's no footwork patterns that one must employ in a dance in order for it to be defined as Lindy. Want to change the pattern of triples in your swingout? Fine. Remove all triple-steps from the swingout? Fine. Invent new footwork for an entire dance, because it better suits the music that way? Fine. The dance is not defined by its footwork. Blues has similar philosophies, albeit a lot more free-form.

    Maybe David's suggesting that Tango does something similar?

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    As I posted above, I'm not quite sure if the Blues you are all talking about is what was exhibited in the Competition last year at Breeze. If you check out some of the footage at http://southernjive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=524 then you will see what I am talking about. All I can think is that what I will call "Competition Blues" bears very little resemblance to the "Blues" danced in Chill-out rooms etc.
    Last edited by fandangle; 17th-September-2010 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Corrected grammar

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    There are dances, however, where there's no set footwork. Lindy's one - there's more footwork technique than you can shake a stick at, and a gazillion and one footwork patterns / footwork options one can use in a dance, but there's no footwork patterns that one must employ in a dance in order for it to be defined as Lindy. Want to change the pattern of triples in your swingout? Fine. Remove all triple-steps from the swingout? Fine. Invent new footwork for an entire dance, because it better suits the music that way? Fine. The dance is not defined by its footwork. Blues has similar philosophies, albeit a lot more free-form.

    Maybe David's suggesting that Tango does something similar?
    Yes, I think so - "footwork" is not really a term used in Tango, so I'm not sure if there's "footwork" or not.

    There are no (or almost no) patterns in Tango - there's a small amount of steps (typically forwards, back, left side, right side, pivot) and things that can be done with combinations and variations of those steps.

    You'd only say something like "start on the left" when you're teaching an example sequence - and then you should make it clear that this is only an example sequence.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by fandangle View Post
    As I posted above, I'm not quite sure if the Blues you are all talking about is what was exhibited in the Competition last year at Breeze. If you check out some of the footage at http://southernjive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=524 then you will see what I am talking about. All I can think is that what I will call "Competition Blues" bears very little resemblance to the "Blues" danced in Chill-out rooms etc.
    I'd be inclined to take a leaf out of Andy's book and describe that as (mostly) slow and musical MJ.

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, I think so - "footwork" is not really a term used in Tango, so I'm not sure if there's "footwork" or not.
    What about if you make a distinction between footwork technique and footwork patterns? Even if there's few defined patterns (could ochos be said to incorporate footwork patterns?), the footwork technique - how you step, how you transfer weight, how you connect with the floor - in a dance like AT must be extremely important, surely?

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Good grief are you lot still going on about this?! Blues is a dance that is defined by close holds, is lead by the music and often includes elements of improvisation by both partners. As such it is a freestyle dance that often incorporates elements of other forms of dance linked by your connection to the music and your partner. Simples...

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    Re: Blues Baby Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Good grief are you lot still going on about this?! Blues is a dance that is defined by close holds, is lead by the music and often includes elements of improvisation by both partners. As such it is a freestyle dance that often incorporates elements of other forms of dance linked by your connection to the music and your partner. Simples...
    .. you forget to mention the "special faces"

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