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Thread: Floors at venues

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The "official" answer I got was that I am liable for injuries sustained as a result of any modifications I make to the floor.

    However, I am expected by my insurers to inspect venues before opening to assess the risk to the public and take appropriate action to reduce/minimise risk - I have been given a risk assessment form to complete for each night.
    A sign to warn about a fast floor seems reasonable
    But, what if the floor was sticky, what action would you take, to ward against joint and muscle injury?
    Surely appropriate action would be to eliminate the stickiness, using whatever means are available?


    Sometimes you can manage risk with a warning like "be careful, this is a fast floor" - asking people to be careful and warning them about the floor reduces the risk but doesn't make it go away
    Exactly but I think it may help to cover 'yourself' against being sued?

    On the subject of talc, I really can't see me ever applying this to dance floors - although I do use on stages and actually did so yesterday. It was a sticky stage and needed something to speed it up to reduce the risk of knee injury. But that wasn't for a member of the public.
    Ahhhh, so 'YOUR KNEES' are worth it then
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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    I've only been to Berko once (I think it was August Bank Holiday weekend last year) and it was horribly slow. Am I just really unlucky then?
    We slowed it down specially for you.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The "official" answer I got was that I am liable for injuries sustained as a result of any modifications I make to the floor.
    Is the venue liable for injuries sustained as a result of any modifications they make to the floor? For example, deciding to varnish the thing with something like tar the night before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Sometimes you can manage risk with a warning like "be careful, this is a fast floor" - asking people to be careful and warning them about the floor reduces the risk but doesn't make it go away - you have a shared responsibility and the public must accept that there is some risk which they must manage for themselves. It is the public's responsibility to work out if they have the skill and ability to cope with the risk as much as it is ours to give them somewhere safe to dance. I see it as our responsibility to provide the public with the information required to manage their own risk whilst providing the public with somewhere reasonably safe to dance.
    But what about excessively slow floors?

    That's the discussion.

    I think everyone accepts that over-fast floors can of course cause accidents.

    What I've heard nothing about is the danger from too-sticky floors.

    Case in point, DavidB.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    Case in point, DavidB.
    And my friend Colin, who pulled a muscle and had to go home after 30min at Hammers!
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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    A sign to warn about a fast floor seems reasonable
    But, what if the floor was sticky, what action would you take, to ward against joint and muscle injury?
    Surely appropriate action would be to eliminate the stickiness, using whatever means are available?
    I have mopped many sticky floors before opening. I carry two floor drying fans to ensure that the floor is dry before the public arrive. I can't imagine you're going to be liable because you've washed the floor and made it cleaner.

    I also take great care to ensure my venues have a consistent floor. For example, I have a new venue opening soon, the floor has been fabulous for years, but I attended a freestyle at this venue some time ago and it was very slow. Not sticky, just resistant to slide like a gym floor, making it feel like you were wearing grippy training shoes.

    A few weeks ago I arranged to meet with the guy who cleans the floor and went over his cleaning schedule. He'd recently changed the floor detergent and was using too strong a solution as it was extra concentrated. He's now diluting it a lot more and I heard that the floor was fine at a freestyle the week before last.

    If I couldn't sort out the floor of a venue to a standard which satisfied me I wouldn't book the venue. The only reason to book a venue which has a consistently dangerous floor is greed - ask for your money back and you will hit them where it hurts

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Ahhhh, so 'YOUR KNEES' are worth it then
    I know I can cope with the extra slide and know my demonstrator can do the same. The floor on stages has often been painted with matt black paint that has no slide at all, you need something to help you slide or you can't spin at all.

    I don't usually need to speed up floors because I'm careful to make sure the floor is right before we open to the public.

    When it comes to a decision about talc I think about the conversation with the insurers. "So, this person slipped on the floor and broke her wrist. Did you do anything to make the floor more slippery?"

    "Oh yes, I put down a layer of talcum powder"

    Case closed

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Exactly but I think it may help to cover 'yourself' against being sued?
    I have 3 different insurance policies.

    Employee Liability
    Teaching Liability
    DJ Liability

    I can't remember the level of cover for the employee bit but it's as much as my broker thought I needed. The teaching is covered to £10 million and the DJ is £5 million.

    N.B. I believe that many people teaching modern jive do not have sufficient cover, especially the employee liability. Thankfully, it's not my worry. If you, as a consumer are worried about this you should ask to see the organisers policy document.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    When it comes to a decision about talc I think about the conversation with the insurers. "So, this person slipped on the floor and broke her wrist. Did you do anything to make the floor more slippery?"

    "Oh yes, I put down a layer of talcum powder"

    Case closed
    See, the thing is, again it's all about too-slippery floors.

    What about liability for too-slow ones?

    My problem is that I can't help thinking that the legal / health and safety crowd are all pushing towards slower floors.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    See, the thing is, again it's all about too-slippery floors.

    What about liability for too-slow ones?

    My problem is that I can't help thinking that the legal / health and safety crowd are all pushing towards slower floors.
    My post was not "all about too-slippery floors". The part David Bailey quoted was about slippery floors. Here is the part of the post that he didn't quote. I think I said more about sticky floors than slippery floors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have mopped many sticky floors before opening. I carry two floor drying fans to ensure that the floor is dry before the public arrive. I can't imagine you're going to be liable because you've washed the floor and made it cleaner.

    I also take great care to ensure my venues have a consistent floor. For example, I have a new venue opening soon, the floor has been fabulous for years, but I attended a freestyle at this venue some time ago and it was very slow. Not sticky, just resistant to slide like a gym floor, making it feel like you were wearing grippy training shoes.

    A few weeks ago I arranged to meet with the guy who cleans the floor and went over his cleaning schedule. He'd recently changed the floor detergent and was using too strong a solution as it was extra concentrated. He's now diluting it a lot more and I heard that the floor was fine at a freestyle the week before last.

    If I couldn't sort out the floor of a venue to a standard which satisfied me I wouldn't book the venue. The only reason to book a venue which has a consistently dangerous floor is greed - ask for your money back and you will hit them where it hurts
    Speaking personally I prefer a floor that is too fast to a floor that is too slow. I think that a slow or sticky floor will definitely cause injury to a proportion of jivers. People will get twising injuries to their knees, ankles and hips. A fast floor will only cause injury if people fall - otherwise it is much safer than a sticky floor. If people are good dancers they are very unlikely to fall on a slippery floor.

    However, the injuries are likely to much more severe on a fast floor as they could require a visit to A&E. A sticky floor related injury is more likely to require mild pain relief, ice packs and physiotherapy.

    Also speaking personally, I would close a venue if the floor was consistently sticky and we couldn't fix it. To do otherwise would be irresponsible as it risks repetitive strain injuries for your regulars.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that a slow or sticky floor will definitely cause injury to a proportion of jivers...

    However, the injuries are likely to much more severe on a fast floor as they could require a visit to A&E. A sticky floor related injury is more likely to require mild pain relief, ice packs and physiotherapy.
    So it's a balance of "pain to lots" versus "potential A&E visits to a few", I guess. Although most falls don't require A&E visits - at most, there's a sprained ankle.

    But I wouldn't exactly discount sticky-floor injuries. You don't get another set of knees once they're gone.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So it's a balance of "pain to lots" versus "potential A&E visits to a few", I guess. Although most falls don't require A&E visits - at most, there's a sprained ankle.

    But I wouldn't exactly discount sticky-floor injuries. You don't get another set of knees once they're gone.
    Is David Baliey trying to say I'm wrong? I think he's another person who is agreeing with me but trying to sound clever by disagreeing with me. He should be a politician. I suggest DB reads posts properly to make sure he's actually disagreeing before he quotes them and then disagrees

    I'm not balancing sticky vs slippery floors. They are very different things with very different solutions.

    I'm not discounting sticky floor injuries. I'm saying that organisers are guaranteed that some people will get an injury from a sticky floor and that I won't use venues with sticky floors. Sticky floors are completely unacceptable. Organisers should do everything they can to make floors good and should not use venues with sticky floors.

    Fast floors are much easier to manage and there's plenty that can be done to slow down a floor - this includes the dancers wearing appropriate shoes. There's no shoes that are right for a floor covered with a syrup of spilt soft drinks. And I know of no safe way to speed up a dance floor that's sticky - apart from cleaning the floor and giving it a decent surface for dancing.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There's no shoes that are right for a floor covered with a syrup of spilt soft drinks.
    Cuban heels, suede soles -- and learn to do heel turns -- can help a lot, but it's not a standard MJ technique.

    SpinDr

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post
    Cuban heels, suede soles -- and learn to do heel turns -- can help a lot, but it's not a standard MJ technique.

    SpinDr
    I use freshly brushed suede soles to give me more control on fast floors. The last time I danced on a sticky Rugby club floor in suede soles I ended up with a horrible, hairy, sticky black mess on the soles of my shoes

    You could change your technique to suit those sticky floors - but a better option would be to dance where there's good floors. We're not short of choice when it comes to places to dance - although can understand that some organisers do have problems finding suitable venues.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post
    Cuban heels, suede soles -- and learn to do heel turns -- can help a lot, but it's not a standard MJ technique.
    Technique be damned - you'll wreck a pair of suede soles dancing on the kind of surface Andy describes...

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Is David Baliey trying to say I'm wrong?
    Is Andy McGregor trying to misinterpret David Bailey's words?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think he's another person who is agreeing with me but trying to sound clever by disagreeing with me.
    Interesting that you think that "disagreeing with Andy McGregor" is synonymous with "sounding clever".

    My point is, again, that I'm concerned that the "insurance industry" is pushing organisers into "erring on the side of safety" - that is, that there's an incentive to slow floors down, because the insurance numpties don't care about invisible muscle injuries, they care about highly-visible accidents.

    That is, insurance advice is not targetted at reducing injury overall, it's targetted at reducing visible, high-profile incidents.

    I'm not saying that any organisers are doing this - I'm just saying that the way the insurance works, seems to provide a bias towards doing this. And I think this bias is wrong. Insurance should be aimed at reducing all injuries, not just the high-visibility ones.

    Hope that's clear now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm not discounting sticky floor injuries. I'm saying that organisers are guaranteed that some people will get an injury from a sticky floor and that I won't use venues with sticky floors. Sticky floors are completely unacceptable. Organisers should do everything they can to make floors good and should not use venues with sticky floors.

    Fast floors are much easier to manage and there's plenty that can be done to slow down a floor - this includes the dancers wearing appropriate shoes. There's no shoes that are right for a floor covered with a syrup of spilt soft drinks. And I know of no safe way to speed up a dance floor that's sticky - apart from cleaning the floor and giving it a decent surface for dancing.
    I agree with Andy McGregor.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Is Andy McGregor trying to misinterpret David Bailey's words?
    I think he was asking a question

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Interesting that you think that "disagreeing with Andy McGregor" is synonymous with "sounding clever".
    In some circles disagreeing with Andy McGregor makes you popular. Although those circles are unlikely to be "sounding clever" - except to those within the circle

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    That is, insurance advice is not targetted at reducing injury overall, it's targetted at reducing visible, high-profile incidents.
    I think that it's to do with proof. It's easy to prove that a fall on a slippery floor broke your wrist. It's hard to prove that the soft tissue injury to your knee wasn't already there or on it's way there due to you dancing 5 nights a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I agree with Andy McGregor.
    Oh dear, don't say that. You'll never be popular with certain morons

    However, I think you're fab

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    there's an incentive to slow floors down, because the insurance numpties don't care about invisible muscle injuries, they care about highly-visible accidents.

    That is, insurance advice is not targetted at reducing injury overall, it's targetted at reducing visible, high-profile incidents.
    Sadly, when you put it like that, it would seem to make perfect sense as far as the insurers are concerned.

    How many people would think about making a claim, for getting a muscle stain or a torn ligament, due to a sticky floor, even though its highly probable.

    Verses, how many people might make a claim about falling on a slippery floor

    The injuries due to a slippery floor may be far less proportionately but the claims would probably out weigh the slow floor

    I wonder, has ANYONE ever made a claim for tearing, or straining a muscle on a sticky floor or has ANYONE ever even asked for their money back??
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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Oh dear, don't say that. You'll never be popular with certain morons
    You sound more like Rocky every day....

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    You sound more like Rocky every day....
    Nowadays Rocky isn't sounding like Rocky. I think he's had his wings clipped.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Sadly, when you put it like that, it would seem to make perfect sense as far as the insurers are concerned.

    How many people would think about making a claim, for getting a muscle stain or a torn ligament, due to a sticky floor, even though its highly probable.

    Verses, how many people might make a claim about falling on a slippery floor
    Yes.

    So, again, there seems to be a clear business incentive to making floors slower.

    So, what I'm suggesting is that we create a counter-incentive, by encouraging people to ask for their money back if the floors are sticky or slow. Or, hell, at least complaining about it to the management.

    If customers become more vocal in requiring decent-speed floors, that may balance out the insurance-led bias. There's no point running a venue where no-one can fall over, if half your customer base ask for their money back.

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    Re: Floors at venues

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    If customers become more vocal in requiring decent-speed floors, that may balance out the insurance-led bias. There's no point running a venue where no-one can fall over, if half your customer base ask for their money back.
    Of course you could email the owner of the business asking them to reassure you that the floor is sorted in advance of the event.

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