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Thread: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Taken from http://jsalmonte.wordpress.com/2010/...ndup/#comments

    Artie Shaw had some great things to say relating to this kind of approach. I’ve quoted him before on this blog, but it bears repeating in this case. http://www.pbs.org/jazz/about/pdfs/Shaw.pdf On the weakness of his Swing Era contemporary, Glen Miller:

    “But the biggest problem, his [Miller's] band never made a mistake. And it’s one of the things wrong, because if you don’t ever make a mistake, you’re not trying, you’re not playing at the edge of your ability. You’re playing safely, within limits, and you know what you can do and it sounds after a while extremely boring.”

    Different context I know but would you agree that the same applies to partner dancing? If so, why?

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Different context I know but would you agree that the same applies to partner dancing? If so, why?
    It depends...

    On the "yes" front: I know I can get in a mindset where I'm more concerned about making a mistake than anything else. The result might be clean, but it is boring, and probably not a lot of fun for my partner.

    On the "no" front: A partner is not a scratch monkey, and it's not particularly fair to do your edge-of-your-ability experiments on someone who's not expecting it.

    This is one reason why it's nice to have a practice partner (or people you know well enough to treat in a similar way).

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    On the "yes" front: I know I can get in a mindset where I'm more concerned about making a mistake than anything else. The result might be clean, but it is boring, and probably not a lot of fun for my partner.
    You're probably underestimating the situation - she may well be grateful to get a "clean" dance if by that you mean smooth and fluent even if it feels a bit soulless to you. But I guess if you were tense about the dance you would probably communicate it on some level to your partner making it less "fun" but still enjoyable.

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    It was said by the Ceroc teachers to beginners that they shouldn't worry about making a mistake because you might have invented a new move.

    I think mistakes are fun and can be made even more fun if they can be seemlessly incorporated into the dancing. It's probably how sabotage was invented.

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Wilde
    Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
    The Picture of Dorian Gray,

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    To err is human to forgive is divine - Alexander Pope

    I just laugh through mistakes and hope I get it right next time - life is too short to stress

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Different context I know but would you agree that the same applies to partner dancing? If so, why?
    Is your dancing crap at the moment then Rob?

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I think mistakes are fun and can be made even more fun if they can be seemlessly incorporated into the dancing. It's probably how sabotage was invented.
    The occasional mistake is fun, it's a bit less fun if there's one every 20 seconds.

    If you could seamlessly incorporate them into your dancing you'd be such an expert you probably wouldn't be making many in the first place.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Is your dancing crap at the moment then Rob?
    I don't know. Ask your wife.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Mistakes are part of freestyle dancing. If you never make mistakes, you're not dancing, you're performing.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Mistakes are part of freestyle dancing. If you never make mistakes, you're not dancing, you're performing.
    Ummm, not sure about that.

    I don't think you have to go out of your way to make mistakes, you know? I'm quite happy not making mistakes in social dancing, if I can avoid it.

    The trick, I think, is to develop the ability to either work past the mistake, or to turn it into a separate movement.

    I can more-or-less do that in AT with my partner's mistakes, but I'm less successful at processing my own.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Mistakes are part of freestyle dancing. If you never make mistakes, you're not dancing, you're performing.
    Personally, I'm a lot *more* likely to make mistakes when performing. And conversely, if I stay in my comfort zone, getting through a dance without any mistakes isn't particularly unusual. (As DJ implies, there will be bits where I know "that didn't turn out 100% as I intended". But unless it requires an obvious correction, I don't count those as mistakes).

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Maybe it depends what we mean by a mistake. Tonight over the course of an hour or so I probably made at least one "mistake" in every dance. I don't really dance in moves at taught in a class, so the mistakes would not be so much that I performed the move "wrong", as the overall movement (of either my partner or myself) I expected from my lead didn't happen – something else did.

    But I guess in every case the "mistake" turned into a variation of whatever it was I was trying to do.

    For each mistake, I don't think anyone got hurt, few beats were missed, smiles were exchanged and everyone had fun.

    So where's the harm in making such a mistake?

    I don't go out of my way to make these "mistakes", but I think it can add to the enjoyment of the dance. Or maybe I just need to go to more classes.

    I'm happy that I rarely make mistakes which would completely ruin a dance, such as hurting my partner in some way – at least, I think I do.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    For each mistake, I don't think anyone got hurt, few beats were missed, smiles were exchanged and everyone had fun.

    So where's the harm in making such a mistake?
    None whatsoever, but you're obviously dealing with "mistakes" pretty fluently so they're minimised to the extent that I wouldn't really call them mistakes, but rather just a momentary vagueness of intention!

    I don't go out of my way to make these "mistakes", but I think it can add to the enjoyment of the dance.
    Maybe, they can add to the sense of fun and sharing in a good dance.

    I'm happy that I rarely make mistakes which would completely ruin a dance, such as hurting my partner in some way – at least, I think I do.
    Don't be daft- I don't remember you making any mistakes of any kind when I've danced with you.

    There's probably a difference between making specific errors resulting in some sort of blip and between generalised bad technique, though one is going to lead to the other, of course. I'm trying to think of specific errors which might bother me, but it's a bit of a grey area.

    One is when the leader puts me into a dip or drop without checking that both of us are in a position to balance properly, or if my feet are not placed to enable me to take my weight properly.

    Another is to do with pretzels where my arms are twisted above my head - if ther's any error in positioning or the leader changes his mind suddenly it can be quite uncomfortable.

    There's also times when our relative positions mean that moves which should be smooth, aren't, because we've got too close or too far apart.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Maybe it depends what we mean by a mistake. Tonight over the course of an hour or so I probably made at least one "mistake" in every dance. I don't really dance in moves at taught in a class, so the mistakes would not be so much that I performed the move "wrong", as the overall movement (of either my partner or myself) I expected from my lead didn't happen – something else did.

    But I guess in every case the "mistake" turned into a variation of whatever it was I was trying to do.

    For each mistake, I don't think anyone got hurt, few beats were missed, smiles were exchanged and everyone had fun.
    I agree, it somewhat depends on what you're calling a mistake. But in the context of the quote at the start of the thread: "You’re playing safely, within limits ...", I'd say that if you're keeping mistakes down to the level where you're confident you can smoothly and seamlessly correct them, you're playing things pretty safe.

    To explain what I'm calling a mistake, it's roughly at the level where I'd expect my partner to notice something went wrong, although 90%+ of the time I would still expect the move to go off smoothly (with both of us accommodating for the error).

    And I'm agreeing that mistakes at that level aren't a big deal, which is why I said "it's not good when I get focussed on avoiding them". Although, there are times when dancing well inside your limits makes sense (partner with an injury being the obvious case).

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post

    Artie Shaw had some great things to say relating to this kind of approach. I’ve quoted him before on this blog, but it bears repeating in this case. http://www.pbs.org/jazz/about/pdfs/Shaw.pdf On the weakness of his Swing Era contemporary, Glen Miller:

    “But the biggest problem, his [Miller's] band never made a mistake. And it’s one of the things wrong, because if you don’t ever make a mistake, you’re not trying, you’re not playing at the edge of your ability. You’re playing safely, within limits, and you know what you can do and it sounds after a while extremely boring.”
    Thanks for linking to that interview - it was fascinating, and it's great to learn a little more about Artie Shaw.
    I think context is important for this - the swing era was an time of wild musical experimentation and innovation - and Artie Shaw and Glenn Miller were both extraordinary perfectionists, although the form that took tended to vary somewhat (case in point: Shaw's ultimate decision to give up the clarinet, claiming that his need for perfection would otherwise have killed him.

    A lot of the best swing bands worked by harnessing the creativity of their artists, and Shaw's band was no exception. Miller, on the other hand, once he joined the forces, had a band which could play with literal military precision, so he was able to be extremely prescriptive about the arrangements that they played, which suited him down to the ground. This is why, I believe, many of his tracks seem to lack that raw energy and creativity that embodies much of the best swing era music. Not to say that Miller didn't come up with some incredible swing, because he certainly did (eg Jeep Jockey Jump)

    Anyway - what Shaw was getting at here was that by being so prescriptive and polished, rather than trying to push the boundaries (and hence risk making mistakes), Miller's band was missing out on much the creative spark which epitomised the swing era, and helped drive it forwards. On the other hand, it could well be argued that Miller was well aware of this, and found that the polish fit better with his personal goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Different context I know but would you agree that the same applies to partner dancing? If so, why?
    In dance terms - again - it depends on your goals. If you want to keep improving, and be creative in your dancing, then it helps if you are prepared to get out of your comfort zone, push your own limits, and risk making mistakes. If you aren't making mistakes, you may never learn your own limits, and learn to extend them.

    However.

    This needs to be balanced, if you truly want to improve your dancing, with the need to polish and hone existing skills. A nice parallel with the Shaw interview comes where he contrasts Miller's overly-disciplined, overly polished approach with Ellington's 'complete freedom' approach, with the sometimes amazing, sometimes disastrous results. Now imagine the same thing, but without the degree of musical talent that Ellington's band had. In dance terms, if you keep trying to run before you can walk, keep pushing beyond your boundaries without working on your basics as well, the results are likely to be far worse than if you never pushed those boundaries, and simply played it safe all the way down the line.

    As with many things like this, I think the answer will vary from person to person. It depends on what you get out of your dancing, where you want to go with your dancing, which aspects you enjoy the most, and so on and so forth. Personally, I look to strike a balance between pushing things, and consolidation/refining of technique.

    [edit]One of the most important things with mistakes and dance, however, in my opinion, is not to be scared of them.[/edit]

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    To explain what I'm calling a mistake, it's roughly at the level where I'd expect my partner to notice something went wrong
    Seems like a reasonable definition. You could also regard collisions as mistakes, depending.

    I'd guess that happens to me, maybe a once or twice an evening in MJ, maybe once or twice a dance with a stranger in AT.

    But within the AT scene, the practica is where you make experiment and make mistakes, and the milonga is where you dance with as few mistakes as possible.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Another way of classing a mistake is an inability to tune into your partner, such that you simply can't lead them effectively.

    This happens to me; maybe once every couple of years in MJ, maybe once every evening in AT.

    It happened last week at Berko, that's what made me think of it; I simply couldn't impose a tempo on my partner.

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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuzyQ, in a thread about driving, ages ago... View Post
    BUT as I said earlier everyone makes errors (even people who obey the law!) ... particularly when performing a semi-automatic task such as driving (1 in every 500 driving decisions is erronous).
    As dancing is "semi-automatic" as well, I wonder what the ratio is for dancing mistakes?
    Love dance, will travel

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    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
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    Re: If you don't make mistakes you're not trying hard enough?

    The number of mistakes I make depends on my expectation of the person I'm dancing with. Dancing with a beginner, I don't do triple spins, as I only succeed cleanly about 75% of the time; having a well placed hand to catch means I don't fall over 95% of the time. So yes, I fall over while spinning about twice an evening.

    With a competent partner, I guess I miss a hand catch every 3 dances.... I frequently do this with door handles too

    Likewise, if I sense or know I'm dancing with a woman who will throw herself into anything that feels a bit like a drop, I count it as my mistake when she throws herself into a drop and I'm not ready for it. This probably happens about once a night.

    Having my partner collide with other people on the floor is my most common mistake. Beginners, who like to step back until their arm is at maximum extension, are the most difficult case. On crowded floors that's about 2' more than I usually allow. Probably a collision every 3 dances on crowded floors.

    I step back onto people who appear behind me about every fifth dance on a crowded floor and maybe once an hour at a typical freestyle.

    Then there are tactical errors. Locally, DJs love to play slow music and build up to faster tracks, before starting again. If I dance to the last fast track, I'll need a shirt change immediately, causing me to miss the only really Bluesy track for that hour. Conversely, if I spot the fast track coming but change too early, I have to sit-out a few tracks until the slow track is played. I mess this up about 50% of the time, so maybe twice an evening.

    Ladies with special instructions are tricky. Locally there are Miss. "I don't do spins", Mrs. "I'll walk off if you do a hallejuah, pretzel or neck break" and Madame "Don't touch my neck". I have a terrible record in these cases, but I don't dance with them more than once in an evening if possible. Maybe another one failure per night to add to the list.

    I hardly ever smile, so that's one more mistake .... one that lasts the whole night.

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