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Thread: What makes a social dance ?

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Question What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The thing to remember is that MJ and WCS are primarily social dances.
    I've heard it asserted a number of times, in particular that "WCS is a social dance".

    I'm wondering what should be considered to support or otherwise a claim of any dance style to be a social dance.



    So what do you consider makes a social (partner) dance?

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    So what do you consider makes a social (partner) dance?
    I think that a social dance is one that you do socially. That is as part of your social life. Social dancing is relaxed and friendly.

    Modern Jive is particularly sociable as the lessons themselves are a social occasion in themselves.

    This contrasts with dancing for competitive reasons and lessons associated with performance rather than enjoyable social interaction.

    I think that social dancing in MJ doesn't especially suffer adversely from a competitive dancing element.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    I have said this a couple of times in other threads that Ceroc was started partly with the idea that there were to be no competitions. Because in the period leading up to competitions, the competitors dance with beginners even less and so the beginners suffer.

    I think there is an element of truth here. I have noticed a definite change in the attitude of intermediates/advanced dancers. And as has been raised in another thread less intermediates dancing with beginners.

    I remember a time when the beginners classes were as well attended as the intermediate class (some may still be). Now though, there is a greater tendency to not arrive till the intermediate class or even just for the freestyle. And I am not referring to people coming late from work. I mean the people who don't think they need the classes any more.

    I think slightly in difference to Andy that competition does remove some of the social fun from MJ.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    ..........competition does remove some of the social fun from MJ.
    Although I am extremely proud of the achievements we have had in the States, I think the above quote relates more to WCS


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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I've heard it asserted a number of times, in particular that "WCS is a social dance".

    I'm wondering what should be considered to support or otherwise a claim of any dance style to be a social dance.
    Well, I could be wrong (it does happen occasionally ) but I can't think of any partner dance that isn't social?

    There are aspects of most dances that are less social, such as competing, showcases etc, but as far as I'm concerned "XXX is a social dance" is just another nonsense marketing claim. A bit like saying "Ford cars are for driving".

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    I think Andy pretty much summed it up. For me yes it has now taken over as my main social life.

    The dancing is fun, if someone makes a mistake it doesn’t matter, as long as you leave with a smile on your face.

    The other side of social dancing is the lovely people who I’ve met, who I chat and laugh with and some I see outside of dancing. That’s what I think makes it social dancing

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    So what do you consider makes a social (partner) dance?
    To me, a social dance is one where the main driving force behind it is the social dance scene, rather than examinations / medals / competitions.

    Lindy hop, Blues, MJ, AT, WCS, salsa - they're all social dances.

    But, for example, Viennese Waltz used to be a social dance, but is not now. (Generally, I don't see dancesport dances as social dances).

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I think slightly in difference to Andy that competition does remove some of the social fun from MJ.
    From experience, I would say that the competition scene is more intensely sociable than the norm in MJ. Most competitors are friendly and welcoming in a way that you don't see at a normal MJ night. I think this is because competition dancers share a common goal and always have something to dicuss with other competitors. Most Modern Jive competition dancers do it for fun - if they were serious dance competitors they'd probably be competing at some other dance.

    As I said above, in my experience most competition dancers are very sociable. However, competition dancers at a standard social dance or class are generally less sociable than is the norm all the time they have different objectives from the majority.

    I think it's the conflicting objectives that create the discord some people see as competition dancers being anti-social.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Well, I could be wrong (it does happen occasionally ) but I can't think of any partner dance that isn't social?
    Everyone's going to have their own take on this, but for me, it's fairly simple - what makes something a social dance is the lead / follow aspect that we all take for granted in Lindy / MJ / WCS / AT, etc, where any leader can dance with any follower with no need for choreography.

    This is not necessarily true of all partner dances. My first ever experience with dance was at a university ballroom dance society - and I do not class what they taught as social dancing. We learned each dance as a routine, and we learned with fixed partners - so the end result was that we could only dance with our regular partners, and we could only do those set routines that we'd learned. (I gather this is the norm for ballroom / latin teaching) The frustrating thing was that most of what we learned could quite happily have been used on a social basis, had we learned it that way. So while inherently, I think that the likes of waltz, foxtrot, cha cha etc could quite happily be danced as social dances, the way they generally seem to be taught, I personally would not view them that way.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    My first ever experience with dance was at a university ballroom dance society - and I do not class what they taught as social dancing. We learned each dance as a routine, and we learned with fixed partners - so the end result was that we could only dance with our regular partners, and we could only do those set routines that we'd learned. (I gather this is the norm for ballroom / latin teaching) The frustrating thing was that most of what we learned could quite happily have been used on a social basis, had we learned it that way. So while inherently, I think that the likes of waltz, foxtrot, cha cha etc could quite happily be danced as social dances, the way they generally seem to be taught, I personally would not view them that way.
    Interestingly when I did ballroom at Uni, it was done in a more social way - people swapped partners in the classes, and there were balls/ freestyles where the culture was that people would ask others to dance.

    So I think the moral is that the social-ness of the dance isn't intrinsic to the dance itself, but the way it's taught and the culture around freestyles etc.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    I think I will re-phrase slightly. I am happy to agree that MJ' ers are sociable irrespective of the time of year. But in the build up to competition they a less likely to dance with beginners, who suffer in terms of having less intermediates to dance with, and may also leave the venue early as a result. There is also the danger that a beginner joining around competition time might experience being refused dances a lot, and be put off. This of course might apply to any dance form.

    I have not seen much WCS so cannot comment on it but I do like the MJ view of looking at your partner. This definitely adds to the "socialness." It occurs to me that Salsa is much more poserish and less social and much less eye contact is involved.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Everyone's going to have their own take on this, but for me, it's fairly simple - what makes something a social dance is the lead / follow aspect that we all take for granted in Lindy / MJ / WCS / AT, etc, where any leader can dance with any follower with no need for choreography.
    I hate to say this, but most of the lead and follow techniques came from ballroom dancing. While the modern dancesport forms of ballroom and latin are focused on competition, the lead and follow is not only intrinsic to the dance, but has also informed all of the other examples you list. I've not been taught anything about lead and follow that I didn't encounter first in ballroom or latin (actually, that's not quite true: I've been taught lots of things wrongly in MJ that make it harder to lead and follow).
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    This is not necessarily true of all partner dances. My first ever experience with dance was at a university ballroom dance society - and I do not class what they taught as social dancing....
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Interestingly when I did ballroom at Uni, it was done in a more social way - people swapped partners in the classes, and there were balls/ freestyles where the culture was that people would ask others to dance.

    So I think the moral is that the social-ness of the dance isn't intrinsic to the dance itself, but the way it's taught and the culture around freestyles etc.
    I'd go a lot further and say that the social dimension is intrinsic in all partner dance forms - they are essentially social forms of dance (as opposed to other forms, where you dance on your own - although they also have a strong social scene built around them). Exactly how that is expressed varies and, naturally, some people will prefer some expression over others.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    To me, a social dance is one where the main driving force behind it is the social dance scene, rather than examinations / medals / competitions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think it's the conflicting objectives that create the discord some people see as competition dancers being anti-social.
    There is, in some posts a false dichotomy between competition and dance. If we move sideways to sport, you have social football. This is exactly the same football as played in the Premiership and every other level of competition. It's usually called social, because the standard is lower and the structures are less geared to winning. However, if you ever play a 'social' game, you'll know that people still want to win. At the same time, you'll find the competitive scene is also incredibly social.

    The biggest issue I have with ceroc's self-proclaimed image as a 'social' dance is that it often refuses to teach people who want to learn and improve beyond the basic level (I'm talking here about the regular, weekly lessons - most people's entire experience of MJ). There is a rather cool piece on motivation from RSA Animate (it's about 10 minutes long, but well worth it). One important point is that people are powerfully motivated by the desire for mastery. Something they don't make a big deal about is the human drive for social interaction. Put the two together, and you usually have something incredible. Being social, competing, and improving are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are so closely entwined that you can't separate them.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I hate to say this, but most of the lead and follow techniques came from ballroom dancing. While the modern dancesport forms of ballroom and latin are focused on competition, the lead and follow is not only intrinsic to the dance, but has also informed all of the other examples you list. I've not been taught anything about lead and follow that I didn't encounter first in ballroom or latin (actually, that's not quite true: I've been taught lots of things wrongly in MJ that make it harder to lead and follow).
    Fully agree*. I've had a number of ballroom & latin lessons in the years since that first experience, and many of the lead and follow techniques that were used went a long way beyond anything I learned in MJ. I don't think those dances are inherently not social dances - however I do think that what I learned in ballroom at Uni was not social dancing, if you see the distinction, and that is a shame. I wish I'd done classes more akin to those DavidY describes - had that been the case, I probably would have continued with them.

    * OK - so I mostly agree - since ballroom jive, for example, is derived from Lindy (itself derived from breakaway), who knows where these techniques originally came from. But that's by the by.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    * OK - so I mostly agree - since ballroom jive, for example, is derived from Lindy (itself derived from breakaway), who knows where these techniques originally came from. But that's by the by.
    Most likely Charleston, which picked it up most of the technique from the European partner dances - like Waltz, Foxtrot and Quickstep - in the 20s. All modified to suit the local music and culture. AT has a similar history: it was a local (Argentinian) evolution of a form of ballroom dancing that became its own species the 18th and 19th century. Both had variations (Jive and Tango) in the formalised dancesport when it emerged. All of them have continued to evolve over time, but the core techniques are pretty much the same across all of the dances.

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?


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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Passion Harem View Post
    Off thread:
    Did anyone else see more than a passing resemblance to killingtime in that film??

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    Re: What makes a social dance ?

    Yes, me
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