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Thread: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

  1. #61
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    On some occasions I'll dance with followers who, for some weird reason will take an unlead step to their left every time tension is taken up, leading them down my left hand side is one way of breaking them out of this annoying habit
    I think this is often due to those followers being unable to turn on the spot (or the leader being unable to lead the same)

    Interesting thread this. I don't think that slotting or lack of is critical to floorcraft - the attitude of the dancers themselves towards those around them is far more likely to determine that.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    On some occasions I'll dance with followers who, for some weird reason will take an unlead step to their left every time tension is taken up, leading them down my left hand side is one way of breaking them out of this annoying habit
    I think that leading someone past your left side isn't the only solution - followers naturally want to pass your right side*. Followers get into the habit of stepping forward and to the left because their partners are usually standing on their line. I prefer to step left, off their line, as I apply compression to lead the back bit of a rock step. Then you can open the door by pivoting 90 degrees to the right as you lead them forwards straight down their line in a cross-body move.

    *Why do ladies traditionally pass to your right side? It harks back to the European Courts in the 1500s when men wore swords on their left side. The lady needed to turn or be held at the man's right side to avoid his sword.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Most of the MJ lessons I've observed aren't really taught in a "slot" with the lead stepping out of the follow's way and leading her forwards. There is usually a slightly diagonal passing where where you both angle a few degrees to the left to pass and then angle back on to your line with your next step(s) after you've passed. It's a bit like passing on a narrow path: you both move to the edges to allow each other to pass and resume the centre of the path after you've gone past.

    In freestyle this diagonal passing means the orientation of the dance can change like the spokes on a wheel. Each time you pass the hub you go down the next spoke. This is part of the reason that people end up dancing in a circle. Nothing wrong with that so long as you've got the space and there's nobody dancing on that spoke.
    I think these are two slightly different things, (or at least, the first thing tends to actually be danced like the second).

    If you don't fully clear the slot, then the follow commonly does one of two things: they can go off line to pass on your right, and then come back to the slot, or they can go off line to pass on your right, and keep going in that direction once they pass you.

    The problem with the first approach is that it means the lady has an extra (largely unled) change of direction to deal with. This makes life harder, particularly on faster tracks. So it has a tendency to 'degenerate' into the second approach.

    The only "problem" with the 2nd approach is that, as you say, the orientation of the dance (slot) will tend to rotate. I agree that there's nothing actually wrong with this. (To David Bailey: the standard term, I believe, is "rotating slot", but you go on saying "sloppy slots" if it makes you happy. {Perv}).

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I think this is the wrong way to look at the issue, very few people (unless they are teachers or judgemental) look at other dancers and wonder how they could be improved.
    I was talking to taxis and teachers. I want them to look at everyone's dancing (including mine) and figure out how to improve it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    ... I also know that a Leader bored with his own moves will either ask for new ones, or leave the class.
    Of course that happens. From my own experience, I've found that my boredom is usually a result of me being boring to myself. The trick to get past it is rarely new moves, and far more often some sort of more technical epiphany - usually connection or musicality.

    I certainly know that the very best dances I've had I can't remember the moves I used (and I have a very good memory for that sort of detail). I can remember who I danced with, the feel of the music, and the exultation afterwards. When I encourage people to dance, that's what I want them to get out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The best way I have found is to make technique an integral part of teaching all moves, to have themes in classes based on specific techniques to gradually make dancers aware of the benefits of good technique.
    This is the approach that most dance forms take, in one way or another. Moves are the mechanism through which technique is taught. And this needs to be done in a way that keeps people interested and energised. The good teachers get this and structure their teaching to do exactly what you say: built technical skills and awareness.

    When I've talked to people about the teachers they consider best, it's very, very rarely the moves they mention. I've not been to any of your classes, but when people have talked about you (always very positively, I should add), the most common thing that comes up is 'connection'. Whatever moves you teach, this seems to be what people actually learn. I doubt that's an accident.

    The problem is, this doesn't seem to happen in most ceroc venues. The ceroc system doesn't appear to encourage it at all (I'm commenting from a punter's perspective).

    My magic wand changes that I mentioned earlier are to get all teachers to do what you describe here: structure their classes better so that the people in the class build the technical skills over time. To help people do this is made a lot easier by having some sort of structured curriculum to work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Dancing in a slot is simply easier and better for basic lead & follow technique.
    The main reason for this is that leading your partner in a straight line is simple and effortless whereas leading your partner in a curve takes much more effort.
    I find dancing in a slot makes the mechanics leading easier, which gives me more time to focus on dancing. If I've got a follow who knows how to follow, then I can lead them and I know exactly what they're going to do (or, if things go wrong - like I give a bad lead - we both know how to recover smoothly). If I lead them down the slot, I know I have to follow them or stop them. If I lead them to spin, I know where they can stop that spin. Whatever we're doing, I know when I can break or vary the movement and where it'd just knock them off balance. I don't have to remember different signals for each variation, because I can lead each variation as required (and I don't need to worry about whether my partner's learnt and remembers that particular signal for that particular move, either). All of this is because leading becomes a set of fairly simple principles that we can both do almost subconsciously, letting us focus on the dancing itself.

  5. #65
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    In WCS, typically the follower will be taking 6 steps from one end of the slot to the other, in MJ it'll be 3. So of course the slot is much shorter.
    Umm... don't get it. Surely the maximum size of the slot is determined by, well, the length of the arms? Certainly I've been at full extension in MJ slotted dancing.

    Do WCS dancers have unnaturally long arms?

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    Also, even though some MJ leaders might lead in a slot, these leaders still often (not always) tend to move up and down the slot themselves to a degree, making the length of the slot even shorter.
    Ah yes, I get you - so in WCS the slot could be much larger than MJ. Makes sense.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I. (To David Bailey: the standard term, I believe, is "rotating slot", but you go on saying "sloppy slots" if it makes you happy. {Perv}).
    I will, I have to get my kicks somehow.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Dancing in a slot is simply easier and better for basic lead & follow technique.
    The main reason for this is that leading your partner in a straight line is simple and effortless whereas leading your partner in a curve takes much more effort.
    Assuming Beginners or Intermediate dancers, teaching slotted dancing makes sense as they can lead their partner in a straight line and move themselves out of the way.
    and I just thought it was so the teachers didn't fall off the stage.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Umm... don't get it. Surely the maximum size of the slot is determined by, well, the length of the arms? Certainly I've been at full extension in MJ slotted dancing.

    Do WCS dancers have unnaturally long arms?


    Good point, I didnt think that through did I 3 of those 6 steps I mentioned are more or less 'in place' anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Ah yes, I get you - so in WCS the slot could be much larger than MJ. Makes sense.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    If I've got a follow who knows how to follow, then I can lead them and I know exactly what they're going to do (or, if things go wrong - like I give a bad lead - we both know how to recover smoothly). If I lead them down the slot, I know I have to follow them or stop them. If I lead them to spin, I know where they can stop that spin. Whatever we're doing, I know when I can break or vary the movement and where it'd just knock them off balance. I don't have to remember different signals for each variation, because I can lead each variation as required (and I don't need to worry about whether my partner's learnt and remembers that particular signal for that particular move, either)
    And this (plus what RobD says about followers being able to spin on the spot) comes back to technique, rather than specifically slot. And floorcraft obviously helps whether a dance is slotted or circular.

    I quite often hear people pointing out dancers (usually followers) who they think look great - to me, they're 'messy dancers', ie lack of technique, stepping all over the place, not following where they should be going. To the people who admire them they're confident at dancing, noticeable on the dancefloor and usually putting in a lot of styling (well, flapping arms to me!). But alot of these dancers would really benefit from some technique training just to tidy up their dancing and enable them to move up a level rather than staying at the level they are.
    Last edited by emmylou25; 13th-July-2010 at 08:39 AM. Reason: fixed quote

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I think this is often due to those followers being unable to turn on the spot (or the leader being unable to lead the same)
    I wasn't talking about followers veering off balance, i'm talking about the ones who specifically take a side step to their left.

    Even at times when they would be lead back where they came from, (a simple walk forwards, block, send her back, walking backwards -- no turning involved), - they'd STILL take a side step to their left

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    I quite often hear people pointing out dancers (usually followers) who they think look great - to me, they're 'messy dancers', ie lack of technique, stepping all over the place, not following where they should be going. To the people who admire them they're confident at dancing, noticeable on the dancefloor and usually putting in a lot of styling (well, flapping arms to me!). But alot of these dancers would really benefit from some technique training just to tidy up their dancing and enable them to move up a level rather than staying at the level they are.
    This kind of comment is very common. It always puts dance teachers in a difficult spot when someone says "they're good, can you teach me to dance like that?" You don't want to be critical of the couple who are a triumph of style over substance, but you don't want to show your approval either. I usually divert the conversation away from the couple and towards the learning process.

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