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Thread: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Slotting is not necessary for good MJ dancing. It's simply a particular style.
    Yes, up to a point, however I think there are at least a couple of pretty strong arguments in favour of at least being able to dance in a slotted style;

    1. Arguably, if done well, in social dancing it makes for generally smoother dancing and helps both follower and leader to achieve better connection and balance, and

    2. Crowded dance floors are a common situation and slotted dancing is a good way to help improve floor craft and fit more dancers into a given space whilst reducing the risk of collisions.

    I probably haven't explained point one very eloquently, but hopefully there is at least a kernel of truth in there somewhere.

    That said, it is still perfectly possible to dance MJ in a non-slotted style and make it look and feel good.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    On to the third page of this thread in a single day, lots of good interesting posts, David Bailey to the fore.....it's getting just like the "good old days" on here.

    Where's DTS got to?

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    I'm still very much a beginner at MJ. It's definitely not too easy.

    A friend that does Tango, Salsa and various forms of ballroom has told me I'm a good dancer; I've been doing MJ since February, have zero musicality (as at least one teacher can easily vouch) and know many many things that I need to improve on before I can be considered a competent dancer, let alone a good one.

    So I'm impressing someone that doesn't do MJ, while still falling short of the MJ standards I've encountered in just a few months. Don't even get me started on the dancers that I'm still scared to approach, because I know I wont do their skill justice.

    That doesn't sound like 'easy' to me. Sure, there's a fantastically shallow learning curve (even for a leader) - but the sheer depth of the learning needed to be good is immediately apparent, and far from easy.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    And isn't that the biggest irony of the whole thing?!?!?!?

    Any other dance teaches technique FIRST. Technique is the foundation upon which everything else should be built, but for some reason in the MJ world it's considered to be "Advanced". Surely something's wrong here!!
    Well it isn't considered to be advanced generally, that's the point! Most advanced classes tend to be more complicated moves;dips/drops/tumble driers etc... I do consider good technique to be something to be covered in an advanced class because modern jive lessons tend not to cover "too much" (clearly it varies) technique for beginners and intermediates - but thats not wrong - it leads to people, some who perhaps thought they couldn't dance, to pick things up much more quickly. And as that structure works - where else do you iron out someones dance? it has to be external to the normal class structure or an extension to it, whether it is called "advanced" ,"church of amir" or something else, doesn't really matter.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Who is to say that dancing in a slot is correct? Is it correct because it's your preference?
    Nope: it's because WCS dances in a slot, so it must be a far superior technique

    If you are looking for a way to make it easier, then slotted dancing could be argued is one way: the follower always knows where they should be in relation to the lead. So they can always re-align themselves and compensate for poorer leads. Personally I think it encourages more back-leading and followers who 'react' to a lead rather than 'following' the lead.

    Learning the discipline & techniques to be able to lead your partner in a slot (rather than arbitrarily dancing in a slot) lets you choose where to lead your partner on/over the floor and is one of the core skills of floorcraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    I'm still very much a beginner at MJ. It's definitely not too easy.
    I don't think I could really be called a beginner at MJ any more, and I agree - MJ is the easiest form of partner dance to learn, but the hardest to master.

    Easy because of the lack of clear, definitive "rights" and "wrongs". Hard because of exactly the same reasons. Good technique makes things slicker, easier, better... but poor technique is only wrong if someone gets hurt.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    but poor technique is only wrong if someone gets hurt.
    Or groped!

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    2:29am Somebody can't sleep


    --ooOoo--
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    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    Yes, up to a point, however I think there are at least a couple of pretty strong arguments in favour of at least being able to dance in a slotted style;

    1. Arguably, if done well, in social dancing it makes for generally smoother dancing and helps both follower and leader to achieve better connection and balance,
    Why?

    Serious question, why does it achieve these things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    2. Crowded dance floors are a common situation and slotted dancing is a good way to help improve floor craft and fit more dancers into a given space whilst reducing the risk of collisions.
    If that were true, there'd be no complaints from MJ dancers aboutr WCS-ers taking up too much space.

    In a slot, you'll naturally be dancing in a narrow-but-long corridor. Let's say 2m X 1m for the sake of argument. In a close hold, or a circular-style, you're doing less "in-and-out" style motions, so you may require less space.

    For comparison, in salsa you have LA style (slot) vs. Cuban style (circular). And my feeling is that LA style takes up more space than Cuban.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Why? Serious question, why does it achieve these things?
    According to my understanding of 'proper' slotted dancing, there are a couple of things that help with connection:

    If you lead a follower down the slot, they are supposed to go down the slot. Which sounds like the most blatantly obvious thing evar, but with lots of MJ follows, you find that if you lead them down the slot, they actually aim to end up on your right. (Which is generally caused by dancing with leads who don't move much, but I digress...)

    Similarly, once you start a follow down the slot, they are supposed to keep going until there's a lead to stop them. There's much more sensitivity towards "am I actually being lead forwards or backwards" as opposed to assuming/anticipating. In particular, any 'in and out motion' is lead, rather than being done more-or-less by default. (I must confess, I find this last bit hard to get working in MJ, at least in the sense of getting the follow to anchor rather than rock-step).

    And of course, there's simply the issue that once you know you're supposed to be dancing in a slot, you tend to become a lot more aware about actually going where you intend.

    All of which can be done without slotted dancing of course, and I'm not sure it particularly helps with balance per se. I do think that having a conscious 'this is where I should come back to' mental image can help with balance as well, but I think it's an effect of a different order.

    If that were true, there'd be no complaints from MJ dancers aboutr WCS-ers taking up too much space.
    I think that is as much that the two approaches don't mix well. WCS is basically making the explicit trade that 'I guarantee to stick inside a fairly narrow slot, but in return I expect to be allowed to move freely within that slot'. When other people aren't sticking to their slots, carnage ensues.

    As an analogy, you can have fairly dense traffic happily travelling along a motorway at 70 mph, with each car. If one person with a shopping trolley tries to cross the lanes, a disaster is very likely. But I'm not clear that the blame lies with the cars. [Of course, at a MJ venue, the issue is more like cars driving up and down a set of supermarket isles. Which is clearly antisocial regardless of how well the drivers stick to their slots].

    In a slot, you'll naturally be dancing in a narrow-but-long corridor. Let's say 2m X 1m for the sake of argument. In a close hold, or a circular-style, you're doing less "in-and-out" style motions, so you may require less space.
    It's not simply a matter of less space; dancing in a slot is more predictable, so it's easier to dance 'big' while still moderating what you do when necessary to avoid collision. (I personally think the difference is small though - although you "only have 2 directions to worry about", one of them is behind you, and it's also harder to judge depth than lateral displacement).

    For comparison, in salsa you have LA style (slot) vs. Cuban style (circular). And my feeling is that LA style takes up more space than Cuban.
    Although I would agree, I would also say that LA style is a much flashier, more flamboyant style, and that probably has quite a lot to do with it. If people danced 'LA style' but circular, they would take up quite ridiculous amounts of space.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    There are two approches to teaching dance.

    Dumb it down (keep em coming).

    or

    Get it right from the start. (don't get in to bad habits)

    Neither is wrong IMO.


    What's wrong is: We don't know our own dance.

    We go to salsa to learn 'our' dance, we go to westcoast to learn 'our' dance, we go to Ballroom to learn 'our' dance, we go to tango to learn 'our' dance, we go to lindy....

    We simply don't know our own dance .

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    I really don't think MJ is made too easy, as Andy said, it might still be too hard! Which is not to say that technique and good dancing should be ignored or not taught.
    The argument reminds me of what is happening in schools across the UK. With the arrival of League tables, schools have been graded and parents make decisions based on those results. However, my boy's school, used to put forward a majority of students for their higher, as a result, a greater number of students received a Higher, but, and this was the crux of the issue, a lower percentage succeeded.
    Because of the resulting drop in League tables, they are now pre-selecting only the most promising students to sit Highers, everyone else is re-directed towards a lower exam (Intermediate 2, I think it's called). I find that utterly depressing, and would hate to see the same principle applied to MJ.
    Yes, we take everyone in, yes we keep the level accessible to all, yes as a result we have a greater number of people who can dance a bit and are not interested in learning fancy technique (or even basic technique), yes as those people might get bored we need to offer them new moves regularly, creating a culture where moves come first... However, we also get a greater number (if lower percentage) of amazing dancers; some will have learnt technique from other dances (if they didn't get it at their local MJ class) but many will have attended MJ workshops, week-enders, private lessons, or simply had teachers who already teach technique as part of their regular classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    I would suspect that if you mentioned such things as body leading and frame, the vast majority of MJ dancers would look at you like you had 2 heads!!
    The majority yes, but a large number wouldn't, as I pointed out above, there are many dancers who want to and do improve at MJ classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    In the UK, I would say yes - for the intermediate classes at least.
    The Intermediate class is definitely not too easy. I know you haven't been to a class for a few years, but most of the feedback I receive is that classes are too difficult, rarely that they are too easy!

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The common pattern I see is new people come along to ceroc, find it easy and enjoy it. This is a good thing, but the story doesn't end there. For some - and this is actually a minority - this is enough. For the majority, they either get bored and leave, or they want to progress and try and find ways to do this.
    I don't think the majority leave because they are bored and not progressing, up to a point, we might be too successful at teaching people to be able to dance, look good enough and have a good time doing so. As a consequence, many stop coming because they have achieved their goal, and are now moving on to another challenge, like learning French or pottery lessons
    In fact, people like yourself, who want more and are disappointed by the content of Intermediate classes tend to stick around, and whilst you mention the path to progress is not always obvious to find, there is a greater number of specialist workshops, week-enders, private lessons with specialist MJ teachers, as well as the large number of other dances that can be discovered and will bring new techniques to anyone's dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    As a general question to everyone - when you see someone dancing, how often do you think, "their dancing would be so much better if only they knew a few more moves?" As opposed to, "their dancing would be so much better if they could spin properly?" Or took smaller steps, or had better frame, or some other relatively simple technical point.
    I think this is the wrong way to look at the issue, very few people (unless they are teachers or judgemental) look at other dancers and wonder how they could be improved. Most people are very self-focused and in that respect, the way they think their dancing would be improved is by learning new / exciting moves. I am not saying this is the right approach, but I also know that a Leader bored with his own moves will either ask for new ones, or leave the class. He will rarely ask how he could do the moves he knows better.
    This is the reality and any dance business must take it into account. The best way I have found is to make technique an integral part of teaching all moves, to have themes in classes based on specific techniques to gradually make dancers aware of the benefits of good technique. Teaching new moves also builds muscle memory, and if done right can improve dancers effortlessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Who is to say that dancing in a slot is correct? Is it correct because it's your preference?
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Slotting is not necessary for good MJ dancing. It's simply a particular style.
    Dancing in a slot is simply easier and better for basic lead & follow technique.
    The main reason for this is that leading your partner in a straight line is simple and effortless whereas leading your partner in a curve takes much more effort.
    Assuming Beginners or Intermediate dancers, teaching slotted dancing makes sense as they can lead their partner in a straight line and move themselves out of the way.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Why?

    Serious question, why does it achieve these things?
    When Followers expect to move out, they stop following and start walking around the Leaders, this is not led, and is also very difficult to prevent once it's automatic. This makes for unpredictable followers who literally ignore the lead, and can cause collisions.
    When leading, the simplest actions are usually the best, especially ones that do not require any pre-knowledge from Followers.
    For Gav, I agree that slotted dancing is not necessarily always best, and I know that in Lindy rotation is part of the dance. The way Lindy is taught and danced make the rotation the simplest way of leading when in a counterbalance position, so the argument for simplicity stands.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post


    One or two observations;

    1. There is huge variation at MJ classes in terms of the type of routines and moves that are taught at intermediate level and the degree to which basic technique is covered.

    3. In terms of the Ceroc model of teaching, I think the initial "warm up" at the start of the night is often done quite poorly (or even not at all). This is an opportunity to gain an understanding of and practice some basic techniques which few teachers exploit effectively.
    In fact the absolute opposite is true to point 1.

    You can go to any ceroc/jive class in the country and do the intermediate (assume you are average dancer,danced for more then 6 months). There are not 'huge varations' just a few minor difference e.g how a teacher spins etc

    This 'warm up' introduced I believe across ceroc 5/6 yrs ago was rubbish at the time. Thankfully most classes I know have dropped it. leave the warm up to Arobic work outs.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I don't think the majority leave because they are bored and not progressing, up to a point, we might be too successful at teaching people to be able to dance, look good enough and have a good time doing so. As a consequence, many stop coming because they have achieved their goal, and are now moving on to another challenge, like learning French or pottery lessons
    Over the years I've observed this time and time again. I often bump into ex-dancers while I'm out and about. They usually tell me that they've got into some other hobby or have a new partner.

    The people who tell me they're bored with classes are mostly the ones who come for the freestyle or see at Saturday night dances.

    Some of those "bored" dancers are dancing in a time capsule with their dancing frozen in time. They still do the "drop kick", "side-to-side" and "Nigel's Clicks" that most people stopped teaching years ago.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    This 'warm up' introduced I believe across ceroc 5/6 yrs ago was rubbish at the time. Thankfully most classes I know have dropped it. leave the warm up to Arobic work outs.
    As part of a health and safety initiative I re-introduced a warm up a while ago. I made it the Rock & Roll Stroll so we could all have a bit of fun. Every single lesson over-ran because it took too long to teach

    However, since we taught the stroll as a warm up we've had women who do it to anything if they can't find a partner. We do use the R&R stroll as a cool down just before we do our proper cool down by playing a waltz. I've found that we get a lot more people staying on for the end of the night so they can do the stroll and the Waltz.

    If you want to see the stroll you can visit our blog here.

    In R&R circles they do this stroll to Revival Day by Lavern Baker - recently we've been doing it to Devil Gate Drive by Suzi Quatro

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    [/
    Because of the resulting drop in League tables, they are now pre-selecting only the most promising students to sit Highers, everyone else is re-directed towards a lower exam (Intermediate 2, I think it's called). I find that utterly depressing, and would hate to see the same principle applied to MJ.
    Me too, it works fine as it is. Didnt know that about local schools - that is depressing!


    The Intermediate class is definitely not too easy. I know you haven't been to a class for a few years, but most of the feedback I receive is that classes are too difficult, rarely that they are too easy!
    Nonsense, i went to a class in Stirling almost exactly 2 years ago (i had to find out if i could still dance for the competition - answer: not without a stupid costume). I do agree overall the intermediate class is fine as it is, but from the point of view of some of the people on the forum it is too easy - but forum people are not normal people and our individual opinions will have no effect on ceroc or other mj class nights. Its only correct collective wisdom that brings change. The vast majority of people who go to classes probably get what they are looking for already.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Nope: it's because WCS dances in a slot, so it must be a far superior technique
    I dance WCS in a slot but I always dance MJ in a circle very strange

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I dance WCS in a slot but I always dance MJ in a circle very strange
    What i find strange is that MJ is taught pretty much in a slot (although without specifying the leader moves out of the way for the follower), but as soon as you get in freestyle or in a larger room, that's when people start moving in circles.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    What i find strange is that MJ is taught pretty much in a slot (although without specifying the leader moves out of the way for the follower), but as soon as you get in freestyle or in a larger room, that's when people start moving in circles.
    Most of the MJ lessons I've observed aren't really taught in a "slot" with the lead stepping out of the follow's way and leading her forwards. There is usually a slightly diagonal passing where where you both angle a few degrees to the left to pass and then angle back on to your line with your next step(s) after you've passed. It's a bit like passing on a narrow path: you both move to the edges to allow each other to pass and resume the centre of the path after you've gone past.

    In freestyle this diagonal passing means the orientation of the dance can change like the spokes on a wheel. Each time you pass the hub you go down the next spoke. This is part of the reason that people end up dancing in a circle. Nothing wrong with that so long as you've got the space and there's nobody dancing on that spoke.

    I don't teach this diagonal passing. I teach the guys to step completely off the path to let the lady stay in the middle. However, there's nothing wrong with teaching or dancing with diagonal passing.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    What i find strange is that MJ is taught pretty much in a slot (although without specifying the leader moves out of the way for the follower),
    MJ is taught in rows; by default that implies dancing in a slot. But MJ classes don't really talk about dancing in a slot in general. That'd be that technique stuff.

    So you end up with "sloppy slots"*, where people typically adjust their positions in classes, but don't bother to do so in freestyles. So typically people effectively rotate clockwise during the dance.

    That's different from deliberately rotating as a style.

    One way of avoiding this would be to teach cross-body leads a bit more (or at all), so people would be equally comfortable leading walks past, on both the left and the right side. But again, that'd be too much like technique.

    * Yes, I know it sounds pervy, sorry.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Why?

    Serious question, why does it achieve these things?

    If that were true, there'd be no complaints from MJ dancers aboutr WCS-ers taking up too much space.
    Not quite the same really.

    In WCS, typically the follower will be taking 6 steps from one end of the slot to the other, in MJ it'll be 3. So of course the slot is much shorter.

    The way a lot of people typically dance WCS, the slot will often be lengthened (scrolling or extending etc) making the slot even longer.

    Also, even though some MJ leaders might lead in a slot, these leaders still often (not always) tend to move up and down the slot themselves to a degree, making the length of the slot even shorter.


    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    What i find strange is that MJ is taught pretty much in a slot (although without specifying the leader moves out of the way for the follower), but as soon as you get in freestyle or in a larger room, that's when people start moving in circles.
    Probably a few reasons for this (lazy leaders as been said), one big reason I reckon is that the vast majority of MJ moves taught; the follower passes the leader on the leaders right hand side, so a spinning motion starts to happen (and by continually rotating both have less distance to travel).



    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    One way of avoiding this would be to teach cross-body leads a bit more (or at all), so people would be equally comfortable leading walks past, on both the left and the right side. But again, that'd be too much like technique.
    On some occasions I'll dance with followers who, for some weird reason will take an unlead step to their left every time tension is taken up, leading them down my left hand side is one way of breaking them out of this annoying habit

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