Is Modern Jive made too easy?

[Dreadful Scathe]

I'm not really talking about whether it was more challenging or not, - a nearby "advanced" class is always very busy, - but this "advanced" class just teaches slightly more (but not especially) complicated moves, - still not a lot of technique.

Then i would argue it is not an advanced class at all To me technique is the majority that makes a class advanced.

If your experience is different, then maybe its just the teachers in question who make it boring because of their delivery.

yes - those teachers probably suck [

Plenty of salsa venues run 3, or even 4 levels in one night.

Yes, but salsa is a proper dance and I imagine you would get less thoughts of "get on with it" with the social dancers than in MJ.

I've been to Lindyhop classes where the basic principles of leading and following have been hammered, week after week after week. Yet some dancers are still innefective leaders/followers after 2 or more years of attending.

Yes, sometimes its the people who suck

[Bubble]

OK, I was going to do a "Is Modern Jive made too hard" thread, but I couldn't justify that one.

So, are Modern Jive classes too easy?

Maybe I'm on my own, but I think there may be a case for arguing that MJ is made too hard, or at least, harder than it needs to be. The problem is that the teaching is extremely moves based and tries to achieve too much, too soon, without bothering to teach important foundations. I'm not going to deny that MJ is an immensely successful business model, or that it gets people 'dancing' quickly. However, in my opinion, people could learn a lot more efficiently if the teaching strategy was different. Of course, doing that may result in lower take up and fewer classes to become a competent dancer, both bad for MJ operators.

I even think that the popularity of Salsa today comes from the success of Ceroc

Last time I told a Salsa dancer that I also dance MJ, they advised me to give up MJ as it would be bad for my Salsa

[One]

Then i would argue it is not an advanced class at all To me technique is the majority that makes a class advanced.

That is what I would've thought too, and I remember when I first attended the class being both very surprised and disappointed. But "Advanced" is what Ceroc call it, so that's what it is! And it's a very popular class.

Even when technique is taught, my experience is that an awful lot of dancers completely ignore it.

^^^ As said, that's my experience too.

MJ is what it is, I can't see it changing much, take it leave it, if you want something different; go do something else, as well as or instead of.

Variety is the spice of life,I like other dance forms because I love learning and want to continually improve in various areas which i'd never be able to do if I just stuck to MJ.

But I love MJ for what it is, a good fun, very popular, social night out, where I dont have to overly think too much

[Andy McGregor]

I have to admit I cant see this working in a big class of beginners

Especially not macho, rufty-tufty guys like me who think it's sissy to hold hands with another manly man

[geoff332]

Then i would argue it is not an advanced class at all To me technique is the majority that makes a class advanced.

By that standard, I would say I've not done an advanced ceroc class in this country (but I have done a few advanced Modern Jive classes - I don't use the terms interchangeably... ).

And, yes, I do agree with your standard.

I know a couple of teachers who will teach more technique that most during classes (still not much), and all I hear is people moaning about it. Generally speaking, MJ'ers dont seem to want it.

I was talking about lot of talk about technique during an intermediate class. So many of the women, especially, moan "get on with it! we dont want to know all of that!".

Expectations can always be managed. The reason people don't want technique in classes is because they've come to expect no technique in classes. By this can be changed.

...I generally believe a lot of people dont want to learn, they're happy as they are and enjoying it for what it is.

If people want to progress and want something more difficult, there's plenty of other, more difficult, dance styles to choose from. But none of those are as popular as the easy MJ.

So MJ should be the idiot dance for people who don't really want to know how to dance properly? Because the approach you suggest is precisely what it will end up being (and some would argue it already is).

This need is proven by the fact that in most beginner practise classes I've done as a taxi, the questions asked are usually about technique - ie 'how to I spin', questions about following/leading, how do you know if x is being led etc.

As a general question to everyone - when you see someone dancing, how often do you think, "their dancing would be so much better if only they knew a few more moves?" As opposed to, "their dancing would be so much better if they could spin properly?" Or took smaller steps, or had better frame, or some other relatively simple technical point.

Making beginners even more basic would mean more people move up earlier than they should do and therefore intermediate would need to be made more improver/beginners plus level.

Maybe I'm on my own, but I think there may be a case for arguing that MJ is made too hard, or at least, harder than it needs to be. The problem is that the teaching is extremely moves based and tries to achieve too much, too soon, without bothering to teach important foundations.

Intermediate is already more of an improver/beginners plus level. At least, it's become that way at my local venue over the past year or so. Unfortunately, "making intermediate harder" usually means teaching slightly more complex moves, not teaching people more sophisticated technique. This gap is a problem. I know a lot of people struggle to make the step up to intermediate, even though they've mastered the beginner moves. I wouldn't say intermediate is made too hard; I would just say they're teaching the wrong things.

I think having taxis/support who help the beginners build confidence is a way to help them understand that it is easy as long as they don't expect to be perfect after only one class. One day if they stick at it, they will generally find it easy looking back. I don't believe it should be made even easier - dancing is challenging when you're learning, for some it just takes longer than others as in everything else in life.

Maybe you should just accept that if some people can't do Ceroc, oops I mean Modern Jive, then they're just not destined to dance?
Or at least not without many hours of one-to-one work.

Even when technique is taught, my experience is that an awful lot of dancers completely ignore it. I've been to Lindyhop classes where the basic principles of leading and following have been hammered, week after week after week. Yet some dancers are still innefective leaders/followers after 2 or more years of attending.

I don't think everyone can learn to dance competently (much like not everyone can learn to excel at dancing - I'll never be a championship winning dancer; I just don't have the natural talents). Of course, everyone can improve at their dancing. But the amount of effort required and what needs improving varies a lot with each person.

What Ceroc does - very successfully - is get people in the door and get them on the dance floor. This is important and shouldn't be underestimated.

If I could make any changes to the format, I'd make small changes at the beginner level. These would be minor tweaks: a few different moves included (the mambo is important); a few small mentions of technique and so on. At intermediate level, you build on the base technique. The key is to select moves to teach appropriate technical points and build these over time. A bit more structure and organisation to the way intermediate classes are organised would achieve a lot. I'd also add in some basic drills for things like spinning and frame. I'm not sure where to put them; either the start of the intermediate class or the beginner's review class.

All of this would demand more of the teachers. And I'm not sure how commercially viable it would be. But I've a sneaking suspicion that it would help retain existing customers. And, generally, retaining existing customers is usually cheaper and more profitable than finding new ones.

[David Bailey]

Plenty of salsa venues run 3, or even 4 levels in one night

Salsa classes are typically taught in the round - the logistics of MJ classes are not designed that way. I think it'd be difficult for most MJ teachers to teach in the round, and certainly difficult for most students to learn that way.

Even when technique is taught, my experience is that an awful lot of dancers completely ignore it. I've been to Lindyhop classes where the basic principles of leading and following have been hammered, week after week after week. Yet some dancers are still innefective leaders/followers after 2 or more years of attending.

Well, I'm tempted to blame the parents, err, teachers, personally.

[David Bailey]

Last time I told a Salsa dancer that I also dance MJ, they advised me to give up MJ as it would be bad for my Salsa

Your salsa dancing acquaintance was wrong.

That sort of advice is analogous to saying "stop speaking English when you're learning Spanish".

The more dance styles you learn, the better your overall dancing will become, and this will feed back to all styles you know. I often switch between "salsa accented" MJ, "classic" MJ and "tango accented" MJ, depending on the music and mood.

[David Bailey]

Especially not macho, rufty-tufty guys like me who think it's sissy to hold hands with another manly man

Try dancing in close embrace with another man, that'll scare them

[Prian]

Last time I told a Salsa dancer that I also dance MJ, they advised me to give up MJ as it would be bad for my Salsa

I tried Salsa after about 3 years of Ceroc.

There are people who have managed to combine them. I think they win the Champs.

[Andy McGregor]

As a general question to everyone - when you see someone dancing, how often do you think, "their dancing would be so much better if only they knew a few more moves?" As opposed to, "their dancing would be so much better if they could spin properly?" Or took smaller steps, or had better frame, or some other relatively simple technical point.

This is brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!!! And so simple too. Do you mind if I use it in my promotions? I'm going to use it anyway, but I'd like to credit you I'm so impressed. Have some proper rep, not the kind everyone can see at the bottom of your post

Edit: Sorry, I've already given too much rep in the last 24 hours.

[One]

The reason people don't want technique in classes is because they've come to expect no technique in classes. By this can be changed.So MJ should be the idiot dance for people who don't really want to know how to dance properly? Because the approach you suggest is precisely what it will end up being (and some would argue it already is).

But who is to say who is dancing properly? Or who are idiots?

Some people aren't bothered about continually improving, they simply want to get out the house and dance the night away. They may not be technically brilliant, but they're enjoying themselves, and that, certainly doesn't make them idiots.

If you want to be around people who take it more seriously, there are lots of other dance styles around, where its obvious people are taking it much more seriously.

As a general question to everyone - when you see someone dancing, how often do you think, "their dancing would be so much better if only they knew a few more moves?" As opposed to, "their dancing would be so much better if they could spin properly?" Or took smaller steps, or had better frame, or some other relatively simple technical point.

Yes, this is very true, but I go back to what I said above: - many people are just not interested in taking it that seriously, or maybe, simply do not have the capacity to improve (for whatever reason). I go to WCS classes where technique is drilled over and over and over, and there are people who have been attending these lessons for a long time who STILL aren't getting it.

MJ venues/Ceroc etc, DO actually throw in snippets of technique, it seems that only those who are really interested take note when these little nuggets get briefly mentioned.

I think if you're really interested in improving your MJ technique, the best way is either learn alternative dance styles, or take private lessons.

I know where you're coming from Geoff, personally speaking, i would prefer it if Ceroc etc, taught more technique.. - but I generally believe the masses simply do not want it... I like how popular MJ is and would prefer to keep it that way, as I fear that introducing a lot more technique might put some people off. And even if it didn't, I can't see the general standard of dancing would improve that much anyway, as many would simply ignore it, or, just wouldnt 'get' it.

[rtwwpad]

I'm sure I've said this before but in the Thames Valley area and Newbury, slotting gets hammered home. Its interesting that at TV about half the crowd pay attention, the others just wildly dance in whichever direction they feel like. Nothing too that, they just don't listen or are happy with their style. At Newbury, where Val and Rocky have started up, everyone slots because that's what they are taught from day one, its a delight to go on the dancefloor. Both areas cover spins , slotting and body leads in the beginners lesson as well as prepping your partner to be on the right foot. Its only when you venture outside these areas and get bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance people that I understand what the rest of you moan about.

[Gav]

I'm sure I've said this before but in the Thames Valley area and Newbury, slotting gets hammered home. Its interesting that at TV about half the crowd pay attention, the others just wildly dance in whichever direction they feel like. Nothing too that, they just don't listen or are happy with their style. At Newbury, where Val and Rocky have started up, everyone slots because that's what they are taught from day one, its a delight to go on the dancefloor. Both areas cover spins , slotting and body leads in the beginners lesson as well as prepping your partner to be on the right foot. Its only when you venture outside these areas and get bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance people that I understand what the rest of you moan about.

Who is to say that dancing in a slot is correct? Is it correct because it's your preference?

If fact, who do you think you are to suggest that if you're not dancing slotted you're "bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance people"?
:WATT:

[rtwwpad]

Who is to say that dancing in a slot is correct? Is it correct because it's your preference?

If fact, who do you think you are to suggest that if you're not dancing slotted you're "bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance people"?
:WATT:

Gav, you are perfectly correct. Who am I to say these things (although please note its was slotting, spinning, weight transfer, prepping and body leading, not just slotting although from a floorcraft perspective that tends to be the nicest). Just because I think it looks better, allows both partners to watch out for idiots with no floorcraft and makes the dance flow better, I should be ashamed of myself.

I think you misunderstand, if you are not dancing slotted, on the correct foot, understand how to spin and can body lead, then you probably are a bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance type of person, generally lacking in floorcraft. (I believe this is a generalisation but hey if I didnt make them then where would we be)

Of course we excuse Lindyhoppers as they are all mad as march hares and do throwouts to all kinds of positions

[David Bailey]

I'm sure I've said this before but in the Thames Valley area and Newbury, slotting gets hammered home.

Slotting is not necessary for good MJ dancing. It's simply a particular style.

Its interesting that at TV about half the crowd pay attention, the others just wildly dance in whichever direction they feel like

Which is their choice, and it's a valid one.

[David Franklin]

At Newbury, where Val and Rocky have started up, everyone slots because that's what they are taught from day one, its a delight to go on the dancefloor. Both areas cover spins , slotting and body leads in the beginners lesson as well as prepping your partner to be on the right foot. Its only when you venture outside these areas and get bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance people that I understand what the rest of you moan about.

Strangely, I was recently at a venue where Val and Rocky teach and I can't remember the last time I've been jerked around so much at a venue. I actually ended up hitting myself in the face one time because a follow was bouncing and backleading so hard, and although that was extreme, I found the majority of follows to be in the 'so bouncy it's uncomfortable' category.

This is genuinely not intended to be a slight on Dave and Val, who I think are great dancers and I understand to be great teachers as well. From personal experience Val is one of the smoothest follows I've danced with. I think it just shows how there's a lot of different things that influence what the people at a venue are like to dance with.

[Lost Leader]

This is brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!!! And so simple too. Do you mind if I use it in my promotions? I'm going to use it anyway, but I'd like to credit you I'm so impressed. Have some proper rep, not the kind everyone can see at the bottom of your post

Edit: Sorry, I've already given too much rep in the last 24 hours.

One or two observations;

1. There is huge variation at MJ classes in terms of the type of routines and moves that are taught at intermediate level and the degree to which basic technique is covered. Anyone who teaches MJ is more likely to be more naturally gifted as a dancer than your average punter and this can create problems. For example the teacher may find it very quick and easy to pick up moves but most of the class find it much more difficult or the teacher is just naturally very good at spinning and finds it difficult to appreciate that others need more help and advice on this. Some teachers are also better at recognising these sorts of issues and adapting their teaching accordingly than others. It is (unfortunately) a fact that if you personally find something very easy to pick up you will often struggle to understand why others might find it difficult and not be very good at identifying what is going wrong and how to improve.

2. To some extent the above problem can be at least partially addressed by trying other classes and teachers until you find one that better suits your needs, however that assumes a willingness / ability the travel further afield and actually having alternative venues in your area.

3. In terms of the Ceroc model of teaching, I think the initial "warm up" at the start of the night is often done quite poorly (or even not at all). This is an opportunity to gain an understanding of and practice some basic techniques which few teachers exploit effectively.

[geoff332]

Anyone who teaches MJ is more likely to be more naturally gifted as a dancer than your average punter and this can create problems.

Which is why teaching is a very different skill from dancing. Some people have skills in both - and they make the best dance teachers. But being a good dancer doesn't make you a good teacher, no matter how good you are. I'm relatively good at understanding and analysing dancing, but less good at actually doing it (I'm far more cerebral than I am physical). The best teachers I know are:[/list][*]Excellent dancers[*]Have been properly trained in dancing - usually outside of MJ - so they understand dancing and how it works[*]Are articulate[/list]
This gives them the knowledge, skill and ability to break a dance down and teach it properly - including analysing what people are doing wrong and helping them fix it.

To some extent the above problem can be at least partially addressed by trying other classes and teachers until you find one that better suits your needs, however that assumes a willingness / ability the travel further afield and actually having alternative venues in your area.

If you're a relatively new dancer and want to improve your dancing, then where do you start? I was asked exactly this question by someone the last time I was at ceroc - it's not that easy to figure it out. You get the really enthusiastic people who do it. But mostly, people aren't quite that enthusiastic, but want some sort of progress as part of their enjoyment, so they go off and do other things.

I think the initial "warm up" at the start of the night is often done quite poorly (or even not at all). This is an opportunity to gain an understanding of and practice some basic techniques which few teachers exploit effectively.

It's a good opportunity, but I've not seen it used well.

[alinp]

I'm sure I've said this before but in the Thames Valley area and Newbury, slotting gets hammered home. Its interesting that at TV about half the crowd pay attention, the others just wildly dance in whichever direction they feel like. Nothing too that, they just don't listen or are happy with their style. At Newbury, where Val and Rocky have started up, everyone slots because that's what they are taught from day one, its a delight to go on the dancefloor. Both areas cover spins , slotting and body leads in the beginners lesson as well as prepping your partner to be on the right foot. Its only when you venture outside these areas and get bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance people that I understand what the rest of you moan about.

rt - as u well know, there are still plenty of "bouncy hoppy tuggy yanky make a circle while you dance people" in the TV & Newbury area!!!

Obviously glad to report you're not one of them

[alinp]

Then i would argue it is not an advanced class at all To me technique is the majority that makes a class advanced.

And isn't that the biggest irony of the whole thing?!?!?!?

Any other dance teaches technique FIRST. Technique is the foundation upon which everything else should be built, but for some reason in the MJ world it's considered to be "Advanced". Surely something's wrong here!!

I have also noticed recently that numbers at my local Ceroc venues tend to be down (I don't have numbers to back this up, just seems to be more space to dance). Now this is probably due to the current financial situation and I doubt due to the standard of teaching, HOWEVER another local MJ venue that teaches technique (and a lot of technique) not only appears to have growing numbers attending, but also attracts a good %age of people I consider as good dancers to both their regular classes and their freestyles. I wonder why??