Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 71

Thread: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

  1. #1
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    OK, I was going to do a "Is Modern Jive made too hard" thread, but I couldn't justify that one.

    So, are Modern Jive classes too easy?

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    31
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    I know a couple of teachers who will teach more technique that most during classes (still not much), and all I hear is people moaning about it. Generally speaking, MJ'ers dont seem to want it.

    Because of the success & popularity Ceroc has had, and continues have, it's difficult to critise what is wrong with their model (a model with most other franchaises also use).

    Some people might argue that they should teach more technique because it would produce a better standard of dancing, but I dont agree, I generally believe a lot of people dont want to learn, they're happy as they are and enjoying it for what it is.

    If people want to progress and want something more difficult, there's plenty of other, more difficult, dance styles to choose from. But none of those are as popular as the easy MJ.

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bracknell, United
    Posts
    194
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    I think this really depends on what you want out of your MJ.

    The standard Ceroc model, which is probably used by most other MJ teachers also, is good for bringing new people into dancing, making it easy to learn some moves, resulting in a pleasurable night of social dancing for most.

    But there are those who do want to progress their dancing further and, as can be seen from the thread concerning frame, learn technique that is not taught in your everyday class, often (but not always) from non-Ceroc teachers. I would suspect that if you mentioned such things as body leading and frame, the vast majority of MJ dancers would look at you like you had 2 heads!!

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sri Lanka
    Posts
    770
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    I don't know about MJ being easy. But the principles that Ceroc was founded on was that it is easy. Therefore as has been said easy to pick up leading to an enjoyable social evening. However there were and are those who want more and or more of a challenge. Some of them set up there own classes and thus we have the MJ classes that are not Ceroc. In particular ones that teach more footwork as has been raised in another thread. I even think that the popularity of Salsa today comes from the success of Ceroc

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    3,166
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    The answered is NO

    Modern Jive has managed get thousands of us, who genuinely believed we could not dance, and OK, may be we still can’t, on to an amazing journey of a life time
    KISS
    Keep It Simple Stupid

    Deciding if posture and frame are the same, or two entirely differ things, must be confined to internet chat rooms

  6. #6
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So, are Modern Jive classes too easy?
    In the UK, I would say yes - for the intermediate classes at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    I know a couple of teachers who will teach more technique that most during classes (still not much), and all I hear is people moaning about it. Generally speaking, MJ'ers dont seem to want it.
    Not in my experience - there are always some that want something a bit more challenging. This is handled by weekenders and the like because 2 levels of class is all a class night could handle i imagine. Of course, if you meant that most don't want more advanced stuff in their normal beginners or intermediate classes, then i agree

  7. #7
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Banbury
    Posts
    554
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    I think it depends who you are, your level of dance skill/technique, and what you want from going to a MJ (read ceroc as that's where my experience comes from) class.

    I've done a lot of dancing in the past and found MJ v easy to pick up, and all my technique has been transferred from various other dance experience, and for the lead/follow/partner side of things from a very technique based salsa teacher. However, that just enables me to get better quicker, and enjoy ceroc for the sociable side of things compared to salsa which i promptly gave up. Most of my friends who've danced before also use MJ for this - yes, to learn a few moves which look good, but generally to enjoy their dancing after years of studying/exams etc. It does however, mean I get bored in classes which seem quite repetitive after a while.

    However, for people who've no experience of dance, I'd say it's the perfect level. Some people find it much easier - my theory is that anyone who's more confident about just bopping around to music on their own and sportspeople who are used to learning actions/movements and have personal body awareness are 2 groups of people who find it more straightforward (or are less panicked about finding it a challenge). Others really struggle - some because they have a preconception that it's going to be hard, some because they don't listen. It might take both groups different lengths of time to pick it up but if they stick at it, most will achieve some kind of dancing ability through MJ lessons. Make it any easier, and there'd be no point in having classes.

    But I do think, however straightforward and basic MJ is, there is some requirement for more technical teaching - I'd like to see a bit in classes, but predominantly it would have to be workshop/optional based for those people who weren't put off by this. This need is proven by the fact that in most beginner practise classes I've done as a taxi, the questions asked are usually about technique - ie 'how to I spin', questions about following/leading, how do you know if x is being led etc. Things that thanks to my background in dance I can generally answer or advise on, but not every taxi dancer has a background in dance to be able to draw on their knowledge if these things haven't already been covered in the classes they've been to.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    There's no sensible answer to that question. Everyone will carry their own perspectives - I know I have mine - that will make sense to them. But nothing will actually make it all fit together. A lot of it comes down to purpose. If your purpose is to have fun, this is very different from if your purpose is to progress - to learn and improve.

    My opinion is that the way ceroc is taught is extremely limited for people who want to progress as dancers.

    There's no question that ceroc is very easy. At my local venue, the majority of vaguely competent dancers stop learning anything from classes after about a year. Compare this to my experience in ballroom where after five years, I was still learning from regular weekly classes; there are people who spend their entire lives learning dance. Someone - I think it might've been David Bailey commented that in AT, you have to think about and practice the dance outside of the classes to improve; something that it sounded like most people do. This is almost unheard of in ceroc.

    The common pattern I see is new people come along to ceroc, find it easy and enjoy it. This is a good thing, but the story doesn't end there. For some - and this is actually a minority - this is enough. For the majority, they either get bored and leave, or they want to progress and try and find ways to do this.

    Within ceroc, progression beyond the beginner level is actually made far too hard. You can do it, and plenty of people have. But it involves finding the right teachers, going to the right workshops and so on. The reality is, the people who want to progress as dancers primarily leave ceroc and go looking elsewhere. You do your own practice and so on. But - and this is important - this has to be managed by the student and there is very, very little guidance for how to do it, even if you look (I can say this confidently, because I have looked!)

    There are reasons why it's too hard. The big one being that it's all about moves and not about technique. Yes, I know there are exceptions to this rule but, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of ceroc dancers know very, very little about basic partner dancing technique. It's this mass, not the exceptions, that really matter. Without that foundation in technique, there's nothing to build on in any sensible and progressive way.

    For me, progression is important. If I'm doing classes, then I expect to learn. If I'm not learning and progressing, then why bother? Increasingly, that's the attitude that ceroc is giving me. And I don't have the time to travel all over the country just to keep my interest up.

    If your purpose is to meet people and have a fun night out, well, ceroc does that. But so do hundreds of other things: it's just not that distinctive.

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    31
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post

    Not in my experience - there are always some that want something a bit more challenging. This is handled by weekenders and the like because 2 levels of class is all a class night could handle i imagine. Of course, if you meant that most don't want more advanced stuff in their normal beginners or intermediate classes, then i agree
    I'm not really talking about whether it was more challenging or not, - a nearby "advanced" class is always very busy, - but this "advanced" class just teaches slightly more (but not especially) complicated moves, - still not a lot of technique.

    I was talking about lot of talk about technique during an intermediate class. So many of the women, especially, moan "get on with it! we dont want to know all of that!".

    If your experience is different, then maybe its just the teachers in question who make it boring because of their delivery.
    Last edited by One; 9th-July-2010 at 11:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    <rant>First of all I want to get something off my chest. Ceroc is not a dance. It's the name of a company which teaches dances, most of the time that dance is Modern Jive.</rant>

    I still don't think we're making it easy enough - in other words, we're making it too hard. Some people still aren't getting it after one lesson. It will be "easy enough" once we've reached the point where we can keep our promise and any motivated, able bodied, student can be dancing to pop music after a 45 minute lesson. I think I'm 85% there and Ceroc is probably a bit better than me in this regard. I'm up to 99% with women. They can mostly be dancing with an experienced dancer after one lesson. This means "job done" with the women. But I'm failing around one in three of the men: they're still unable to dance to a whole track after one lesson

    I'm starting to wonder if I've got my approach wrong. From what I've read on here it seems that Ceroc are putting less and less technique/content into their beginners lessons - I've not attended a standard Ceroc class for over a year so I can't say this from my own observation. On the other hand, I've been putting in more technique tips in the expectation that this will help the guys get it quicker.

    What I have found is that those guys who stick with it are good(ish) after 6 beginners lessons and have less bad habits: so I have adjusted my welcome speech to manage their expectations. But I would love to find a way to make that first step easier and achieve my objective of getting them all dancing after one lesson without compromising their subsequent progress by introducing bad habits that get into their muscle memory - as they say in golf "it's ten times as hard to shift a bad habit as it is to develop a good one".

    So my answer is, for me at least, it's not too easy, it's just about right for women and still too hard for some men.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    3,166
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    ....This means "job done" with the women. But I'm failing around one in three of the men: they're still unable to dance to a whole track after one lesson ...........
    So should "we" learn from from the traditional way of teaching Argentinian Tango, were the men start, by learning to follow

  12. #12
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Banbury
    Posts
    554
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I still don't think we're making it easy enough - in other words, we're making it too hard. Some people still aren't getting it after one lesson. It will be "easy enough" once we've reached the point where we can keep our promise and any motivated, able bodied, student can be dancing to pop music after a 45 minute lesson. I think I'm 85% there and Ceroc is probably a bit better than me in this regard. I'm up to 99% with women. They can mostly be dancing with an experienced dancer after one lesson. This means "job done" with the women. But I'm failing around one in three of the men: they're still unable to dance to a whole track after one lesson

    So my answer is, for me at least, it's not too easy, it's just about right for women and still too hard for some men.
    Ok so I'm female with lots of dancing experience, and I'm not a teacher, just a taxi, but IMO the guys who struggle after 1 lesson to dance to a whole track may have other things going on that make them find it harder to remember the moves. Some people need to take away what they've learnt and will remember it later, others have a mental block that just tells them they can't do it, and quite a few may just be plain terrible and will never be a good dancer. It's great to be able to get so many dancing after one class but i don't think making it easier would help, unless you can bring in more levels of classes within the night.

    Making beginners even more basic would mean more people move up earlier than they should do and therefore intermediate would need to be made more improver/beginners plus level. Then you'd get intermediates being bored stiff or having 3 classes and cutting short the freestyle which is actually a really valuable part.

    I think having taxis/support who help the beginners build confidence is a way to help them understand that it is easy as long as they don't expect to be perfect after only one class. One day if they stick at it, they will generally find it easy looking back. I don't believe it should be made even easier - dancing is challenging when you're learning, for some it just takes longer than others as in everything else in life.

  13. #13
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    So should "we" learn from from the traditional way of teaching Argentinian Tango, were the men start, by learning to follow
    I like this idea. But who would lead them?

  14. #14
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    IMO the guys who struggle after 1 lesson to dance to a whole track may have other things going on that make them find it harder to remember the moves.
    I console myself with this thought when I see them struggling in the first few tracks of freestyle.

    Our crew/taxi dancers are fabulous and really do help those guys who struggle. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth all the efforts of the crew as the guys who struggle are often the ones who don't return - the guys who are dancing after one lesson usually come back eager to learn more. My thoughts are that they've paid for a lesson and help from crew and they should receive that help even if they're not going to be there next week.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    South
    Posts
    5,424
    Blog Entries
    22
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Maybe you should just accept that if some people can't do Ceroc, oops I mean Modern Jive, then they're just not destined to dance?
    Or at least not without many hours of one-to-one work.

  16. #16
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    I think this really depends on what you want out of your MJ.
    What I would like out of any MJ class I attended would be to learn something related to Modern Jive.

    I'd have the same attitude towards any class, especially one I paid for.

  17. #17
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I don't know about MJ being easy. But the principles that Ceroc was founded on was that it is easy.
    If so, I think it's time to review those principles...

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Therefore as has been said easy to pick up leading to an enjoyable social evening. However there were and are those who want more and or more of a challenge. Some of them set up there own classes and thus we have the MJ classes that are not Ceroc. In particular ones that teach more footwork as has been raised in another thread.
    To be honest, I don't believe that non-Ceroc classes are any more technique-focussed than Ceroc ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I even think that the popularity of Salsa today comes from the success of Ceroc
    Mmm, not sure about that one. There's crossovers, sure - eg. me - but I'm not sure that salsa has really benefitted from MJ. Neither has Tango. Although WCS clearly has taken a lot of its initial market from the MJ crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I think it might've been David Bailey commented that in AT, you have to think about and practice the dance outside of the classes to improve;
    Sounds like me

  18. #18
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    <rant>First of all I want to get something off my chest. Ceroc is not a dance. It's the name of a company which teaches dances, most of the time that dance is Modern Jive.</rant>
    Calm down dear, it's only a forum thread.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    290
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    2 levels of class is all a class night could handle i imagine.
    Plenty of salsa venues run 3, or even 4 levels in one night. I can't imagine MJ operators would want to do that unless all their competitors have already done it; after all, why would someone want to hire another teacher or work harder for the same or less money? Also, many salsa nights are still freestyling up to midnight or beyond; that means extra levels don't eat into freestyle time.

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    still not a lot of technique.
    Even when technique is taught, my experience is that an awful lot of dancers completely ignore it. I've been to Lindyhop classes where the basic principles of leading and following have been hammered, week after week after week. Yet some dancers are still innefective leaders/followers after 2 or more years of attending.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    3,166
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is Modern Jive made too easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I like this idea. But who would lead them?
    The best Tango workshop i have ever attended ran as follows

    In the first session, men only, the boys took it in turns to dance with each other, when we changed roles, the guys who had been following, were told to lead the way the other guy had led them, this way you got to understand what is was like to dance with yourself.
    I am told, the ladies did exactly same in the second session. We all danced together in the third session

    The above was an improvers workshop but I have been to beginner Tango lessons, were people are encouraged to "couple up" at random with every one taking it in turns to lead and follow

    I have to admit I cant see this working in a big class of beginners

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Is there too much West Coast Swing at Modern Jive Weekenders?
    By Andy McGregor in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 98
    Last Post: 25th-January-2009, 02:43 PM
  2. Ceroc IS Modern Jive
    By David Bailey in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 8th-September-2008, 01:26 PM
  3. Modern Jive Hall of Fame
    By Andy McGregor in forum Hall of Fame
    Replies: 82
    Last Post: 11th-February-2008, 05:25 PM
  4. Modern Jive In France
    By paul stevo in forum The Land of a 1000 dances
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 19th-September-2007, 05:28 PM
  5. Timing in Modern Jive
    By DavidB in forum Intermediate Corner
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 4th-September-2002, 04:14 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •