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Thread: Do leaders need frame and balance

  1. #141
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Stepping back at the start opens more space infront of her, visually inviting a forward movement, moving towards her half way through closes that space, visually indicating to start moving backwards.
    Create tension at the end of the previous move, moving back on 1 to use that tension to bring your partner towards you (body lead, nothing visual)
    The change of direction is similar - you smoothly slow, absorb your partner's momentum establishing the compression, then use that compression to send your partner back. Pure body lead, nothing visual, and it works just as well if both parties close their eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Or in a swingout/whip/underarm turn; stepping/rocking back opens space infront of her, then turning your body sideways keeps that space open even though you either stop moving, or move in the opposite direction.
    I'm only going to talk about the swingout here, for obvious reasons - but it's the same thing - The leader establishes the tension / stretch at the end of the previous move, and moves back on 1 and 2 to start his partner moving towards him. There's an important rule of thumb with Lindy following, which is to always keep going in the direction one is sent, until the leader stops one - and that applies here - so the follower, keeps coming towards the lead, and he gets out of the way. When he turns his body to keep facing her, they still have a good left-to-right connection, and that turns her body accordingly.

    Again - nothing visual - on the contrary, one of the things that often goes wrong with the swingout is when the follower sees the leader in her path, so moves to her left on 1 and 2 to go around him, rather than trust that he will get out of her way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    And yes. Dancing is bags of fun. Trolley loads of it. But only if the compression on your left side and leverage on the right, during a visual lead heel spin, doesn't overbear the physical connection that passes through the observer's middle chakra, or else, um, oh. Damn. I've bored myself into a stupor. Fart jokes, anyone?
    Dancing, to me, is a joy when it feels good. Connecting well with my partner feels really good to me.... and the better I connect, and the better I move, the more fun and satisfying it is. Which is why I always try to learn to do these things better.... so I can have more fun. So much fun, in fact, that I don't even need fart jokes....

  2. #142
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Pure body lead, nothing visual, and it works just as well if both parties close their eyes.
    I think I’m being misunderstood. Oh Lord. Please don’t let me be misunderstood.

    I don't claim that body leads rely on what you see. I know that you can lead and follow with your eyes closed, and the mechanics you describe are clear and I’m not disputing them.

    We both agree that body leads are better because they feel better. Its just that I’m saying they are better in more ways than just that reason...

    Maybe it will be clearer if I put it this way: Body leads work better than arm leads from a spatial point of view.

    In general, with a body lead, your body will move in the direction you want your follower to move next. This generally involves clearing the space the follower will fill, or invading the space the follower will vacate.

    If you disagree, can you think of an example where an arm lead could make more spatial sense than a body lead?

  3. #143
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I think I’m being misunderstood. Oh Lord. Please don’t let me be misunderstood.
    It's OK - I understand you now.
    Even if sometimes you seem a little mad,
    For you're just a soul whose intentions are good...
    (OK - I'll stop this now)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I don't claim that body leads rely on what you see. I know that you can lead and follow with your eyes closed, and the mechanics you describe are clear and I’m not disputing them.

    We both agree that body leads are better because they feel better. Its just that I’m saying they are better in more ways than just that reason...

    ...
    ...

    If you disagree, can you think of an example where an arm lead could make more spatial sense than a body lead?
    I do see what you mean, but ... I'm still not sure I agree. Let's take the swingout example - the move can be chiefly arm-led - however the move still has the same shape - the leader still has to vacate the space that the follower will travel through, then move back into it after she's passed, for example. The use of arm leads doesn't change that - so the visual element is much the same.

    Bear in mind also that the leader gets out of the way pretty late (starting to move to the side on 2, when the follower is in that space by 3) - she has to be committed to invading that space before the leader is properly out of the way, which doesn't give much time to react to a visual lead. The body lead, however, has been telling her where to go from the moment the leader begins to step back (before 1, in other words)

    I'm sure that for some moves, a follower could take visual cues in the way you describe from the way the leader is leading - but even then, I'm not convinced that this is a good thing (for example, what I mentioned earlier about followers stepping to their left at the start of a swingout to avoid an anticipated collision)

    I do see that in the case of a sugar push, a leader could just stand there and only move his/her arms, which I guess is one of the scenarios with an obvious visual differentiation - but even then, with the pure arm lead, the follower still sees a hulking great leader standing there in her way not moving - so there's probably some indication there for her to stop before she hits him (her?). If she so desires .

  4. #144
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Bear in mind also that the leader gets out of the way pretty late (starting to move to the side on 2,
    On count 1 your right shoulder is probably already moving back, starting to open up the 'slot' for your follower to travel down. This is even more obvoius if you're doing the old Frankie Manning 'swing the arm back', although there is a natural rotation of the upper body in that direction since you rock back left foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    she has to be committed to invading that space before the leader is properly out of the way, which doesn't give much time to react to a visual lead.
    I'm not saying its a lead, and I think you're confusing two different parts of the move.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    The body lead, however, has been telling her where to go from the moment the leader begins to step back (before 1, in other words)
    The moment the follower feels the lead and the moment the space starts to open is exactly the same. In other words, your step back on '1' is feelable and visible at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I'm sure that for some moves, a follower could take visual cues in the way you describe from the way the leader is leading - but even then, I'm not convinced that this is a good thing
    If you don't think its a good thing, try dancing very fast lindy with her eyes closed. I'm sure most people would find it harder, even if all the body leads are in place. Its like balance; you can do it with your eyes closed, but its harder. What you see can reinforce what you feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I'm not convinced that this is a good thing (for example, what I mentioned earlier about followers stepping to their left at the start of a swingout to avoid an anticipated collision)
    But thats not a case of a bodylead causing visual confusion. That's simply a case of an inexperienced follower not being spatially aware enough to realize that there is room for her to pass, since by count two and maybe earlier the mans body is opening out to the right. Followers learn to feel body leads, but also, in my opinion, become more aware of space, which helps them prepare for changes in compression and leverage.


    All in all, we agree body leads are better.
    I think the eyes help, you seem to think they hinder. But your examples of where they hinder are of inexperienced followers who read space poorly. Good followers follow better even better with their eyes open, in my experience, although dancing with the eyes closed is a good exercise to test and hone the feel.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    On count 1 your right shoulder is probably already moving back, starting to open up the 'slot' for your follower to travel down.
    Or even earlier!!

    For example, a travelling return in MJ or RS under arm pass in WCS (effectively the same move) can be initiated by opening up the slot by rotating shoulders, thus indicating the desired direction of travel before moving on the 1 - a pre-lead, if you like .

  6. #146
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Yay.

    Well done guys n gals.
    I've been on hols for a week and it's lovely to come back and find a thread as vast as this where there is no bitching, no back-biting and no name-calling.
    OK, the occasional misunderstanding and semantic issues but all in all a bit of interesting, polite, useful and thoroughly enjoyable reading.

    Heavenly.
    gb

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    On count 1 your right shoulder is probably already moving back, starting to open up the 'slot' for your follower to travel down. This is even more obvoius if you're doing the old Frankie Manning 'swing the arm back', although there is a natural rotation of the upper body in that direction since you rock back left foot.
    No - on 1, I'm going straight back, and the turn hasn't started. I don't tend to do the Frankie 'invite' (it looked great when he did it, but I've never liked doing that myself.) I can't see why rocking back on the left would naturally turn you to the right, unless you also rock back to the left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I'm not saying its a lead, and I think you're confusing two different parts of the move.
    Sorry - poor choice of words. Visual aspect. I don't think I'm confusing anything here, but perhaps we have different swingout styles from each other...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    The moment the follower feels the lead and the moment the space starts to open is exactly the same. In other words, your step back on '1' is feelable and visible at the same time.
    I move back, yes, but clearing the way (moving to the side) doesn't start until 2. As for feeling / seeing the step back... when I've started with tension between us, she will feel me start to move before it's clearly visible. Remember - I'm working against that tension to start myself moving. If you think about our arms as springs that are connected and stretched apart - the instant I apply a force to move myself away, the springs have to stretch (or my partner move) before I can actually physcally move myself. So I still think she'll feel it before she sees it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    If you don't think its a good thing, try dancing very fast lindy with her eyes closed. I'm sure most people would find it harder, even if all the body leads are in place. Its like balance; you can do it with your eyes closed, but its harder. What you see can reinforce what you feel.
    All very true, but I'd say that's more of a universal thing - not specific to the use of body leads. I'd actually feel slightly more comfortable dancing fast 'blind' if I were body leading, because I get a better feel of where my partner is and what she's doing than if I were purely using arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    But thats not a case of a bodylead causing visual confusion. That's simply a case of an inexperienced follower not being spatially aware enough to realize that there is room for her to pass, since by count two and maybe earlier the mans body is opening out to the right.
    Or by her not quite being able to trust that the lead knows what he's doing, and will get out of her way before a collision happens. I certainly don't think the body lead actually causes this problem - it's just a problem inherent in the move itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Followers learn to feel body leads, but also, in my opinion, become more aware of space, which helps them prepare for changes in compression and leverage.
    I still don't see that a visual awareness of space helps particularly with such a tactile concept as tension and compression. Maybe I'm just more of a tactile person than a visual one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    All in all, we agree body leads are better.
    Yes. We are but two kindred spirits, debating the finer points of our shared cause
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I think the eyes help, you seem to think they hinder. But your examples of where they hinder are of inexperienced followers who read space poorly. Good followers follow better even better with their eyes open, in my experience, although dancing with the eyes closed is a good exercise to test and hone the feel.
    Not ... hinder, as such - it's a tendency to anticipate that is hindering. It's the prioritisation of visuals over the actual lead that causes the anticipation - because in the case I've given, the visual cues are actually saying something different from the lead.
    Last edited by straycat; 14th-July-2010 at 01:53 PM.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    As for feeling / seeing the step back... when I've started with tension between us, she will feel me start to move before it's clearly visible. Remember - I'm working against that tension to start myself moving. If you think about our arms as springs that are connected and stretched apart - the instant I apply a force to move myself away, the springs have to stretch (or my partner move) before I can actually physcally move myself. So I still think she'll feel it before she sees it.
    Sorry, but don't get this. Unless you are made of some inflexible material (man of steel, perhaps) then, assuming you are body leading, you WILL move your body before (even if it's the tiniest fraction) she feels the movement through the connection.

  9. #149
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    This has become one of those situations where we might write for days and still not come to agreement, but if we were face to face would probably come to an understanding in a few minutes, but I'll give this forum stuff one last go....

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    No - on 1, I'm going straight back, and the turn hasn't started.
    The turn hasn't started, but I would recommend that rather than having your shoulders parallel to the follower, you allow the right shoulder to open back as you step back, if not before, anticipating the fact that you want her to pass on your right side. I suspect you do this. Certainly most good leaders that I watch do it. Who's dancing do you admire? I'm sure a youtube clip would prove this right or wrong. Dancers I admire include Skye, Todd, Kevin. Here's a clip of Kevin. Its jack n jill, so its pure lead and follow. You can clearly see on every swing out he starts with his right shoulder back. Compare that with a left side pass around 58 sec, and he's clearly got his left shoulder back, anticipating a left side pass. In most cases I can tell which side he'll have Ramona pass before she will have felt the lead.



    Or compare yourself how you align your shoulders for a left side pass, a right side pass or a sugar push. The visible alignment of the shoulder gives a visual clue often before a lead can be felt.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I can't see why rocking back on the left would naturally turn you to the right, unless you also rock back to the left..
    Because when we walk we naturally swing our arms in opposition. This also happens in the body, the torso spirals slightly in opposition to the front leg. So if I rock back right, the tendency is for my torso to spiral slightly to the left. If I rock back left, the tendency is the reverse. Of course in leading you sometimes over-ride or have to relearn what is natural. I believe its called heterolateral movement. Its more commonly discussed in tango, but quite visible in Charleston where the body swings in opposition to the front leg.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Sorry - poor choice of words. Visual aspect. I don't think I'm confusing anything here, but perhaps we have different swingout styles from each other...
    I think you’re mixing up the lead to have the follower come forward (which in this case is a step back) with the opening out or movement to the side which allows her to keep following that initial lead.
    Its true that beginners move to the side because they think you’re in the way. But that’s true whether you lead them forward with a body lead or an arm lead. The difference is a body lead, where you step back, has the advantage of creating more space in front of her where as a simple pull with the arm and no step back doesn’t.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    the instant I apply a force to move myself away, the springs have to stretch (or my partner move) before I can actually physcally move myself. So I still think she'll feel it before she sees it..
    That’s fine. Sometimes she’ll feel it before she sees it. Or in some cases she’ll see it before she feels it (check out 48sec on the same video, where Kevin moves back allowing his connection to extend before creating tension later.) Sometimes she’ll see it and feel it at the same time. The point is, what she sees (no matter when she sees it) compliments what she feels if you lead with the body. Which isn’t true for an arm lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I'd actually feel slightly more comfortable dancing fast 'blind' if I were body leading, because I get a better feel of where my partner is and what she's doing than if I were purely using arms..
    I think it’s a good exercise, if there’s no one else in the room. But once you’ve improved how much information you get from what you feel, I think what you see can only help.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I still don't see that a visual awareness of space helps particularly with such a tactile concept as tension and compression. Maybe I'm just more of a tactile person than a visual one.
    I’m not saying it helps directly with tension or compression. It helps in the general communication of what’s going on, giving the follower extra confidence that she’s going ‘the right’ way. That’s when she’s more likely to feel ready to stylize and enjoy the movement more.


    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Not ... hinder, as such - it's a tendency to anticipate that is hindering. It's the prioritisation of visuals over the actual lead that causes the anticipation - because in the case I've given, the visual cues are actually saying something different from the lead.
    I agree that prioritising the visual over the tactile is a problem. That’s why I consider the visual a ‘reinforcement’. If you rely on reinforcements instead of the main foundations holding up a house, it will fall down.


    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Not ... hinder, as such - it's a tendency to anticipate that is hindering..
    This is a whole new debate, but I think anticipation is a good thing and important. To anticipate does not mean to act upon anything, it only means to expect or to be ready for. Forgetting visuals for a moment, take the fact that the follower knows there is a big break coming up in the music. She anticipates that the leader will ‘do something with it.’ She knows he might not, but the fact that she is ready for it means you’re more likely to have that precise and magical moment where you really hit something together, and allows the follower to be more than an automaton merely following physical sensations. That’s why I like dancing with musical followers more. They pick up on so many things such as quality, dynamics, mood and attitude that are hard to convey just through physical leads.


    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    because in the case I've given, the visual cues are actually saying something different from the lead.
    I still disagree, but frankly I’m spent. I’m going to ask some followers if they think seeing it compliments just feeling it. We might both be surprised: maybe they'll compliment me on seeing it, but upon feeling it find themselves faintly disappointed.... I maybe a while.


    Cheers.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by gamebird View Post
    I've been on hols for a week and it's lovely to come back and find a thread as vast as this where there is no bitching, no back-biting and no name-calling.
    We aim to please

    Perhaps all the biches are still on their holidays - let's hope it rains

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    We are but two kindred spirits, debating the finer points of our shared cause
    I realized one last post might be useful in finding common ground.
    What if I put it this way:

    Body leads feel better than arm leads. They also make more sense spatially compared to arm leads. That's why they look better for both the follower and outside observers.

    So fine. If you're by yourself you can just use your arm. But when you've got a partner use your whole body.

    I think I'm crossing the 'slightly nauseating' line now, so I'll take a little break...

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Sorry, but don't get this. Unless you are made of some inflexible material (man of steel, perhaps) then, assuming you are body leading, you WILL move your body before (even if it's the tiniest fraction) she feels the movement through the connection.
    Yes... but she'll feel that tiniest fractional movement before she sees it, and much more clearly.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Yes... but she'll feel that tiniest fractional movement before she sees it, and much more clearly.
    Highly unlikely!!! That is unless you've managed to slow down the speed of light??

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Highly unlikely!!! That is unless you've managed to slow down the speed of light??
    If you feel something, you can react to it quicker than if you see something - mainly because you don't have to interpret it and send commands to your limbs to move.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    If you feel something, you can react to it quicker than if you see something - mainly because you don't have to interpret it and send commands to your limbs to move.
    Yes - but that's something different. It may well be what straycat means, but it's not what he's saying.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Yes - but that's something different. It may well be what straycat means, but it's not what he's saying.
    I'm fluent in Straycatese. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I'm fluent in Straycatese. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.
    Perfect translation - thank you. Also, it's easier to feel the 'tiniest fraction' (as alinp put it) of movement than to see it.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    This has become one of those situations where we might write for days and still not come to agreement, but if we were face to face would probably come to an understanding in a few minutes, but I'll give this forum stuff one last go....
    Very true. I've been enjoying the debate though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    The turn hasn't started, but I would recommend that rather than having your shoulders parallel to the follower, you allow the right shoulder to open back as you step back, if not before, anticipating the fact that you want her to pass on your right side. I suspect you do this.
    Erm - yes - kind of. I do tend to use the right shoulder back position, yes, but not consciously - chiefly because it's a very natural position to fall into when you stand square on, have a left-to-right hand hold and apply tension between you and your partner. I'll generally start from the same position if I want to lead my partner past on my left (at least when I start from open with a rock step.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Here's a clip of Kevin. Its jack n jill, so its pure lead and follow. You can clearly see on every swing out he starts with his right shoulder back.
    I can clearly see that he starts out with his right shoulder back for just about every open-position move where he got a left-to-right handhold. But even at the beginning of the clip - look closely at how he moves back. His right shoulder is back before he starts moving himself. When he actually moves, he goes straight back, without opening his body out any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Compare that with a left side pass around 58 sec, and he's clearly got his left shoulder back, anticipating a left side pass.
    If we're looking at the same move, yes he does have his left shoulder back ... but he has a right-to-left handhold. Natural position again. The move he does immediately before that, however (around 54 sec) he has the same right to right handhold, left shoulder back in the same way, and he leads a right side pass. Myself, I see nothing to suggest that this shoulder positioning can be used to anticipate anything about what's to come - just that it's a natural position to be in. Love the clip though.



    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I think you’re mixing up the lead to have the follower come forward (which in this case is a step back) with the opening out or movement to the side which allows her to keep following that initial lead.
    I'm still not clear on why you think that, but you'll have to trust that I am not.

    I'm also running out of steam (and time) here - and we're certainly approaching the going-round-in-circles point, so I'm also going to call it a day. The main thrust seems to be that I think you're overplaying the visual role in body leads, and you think I'm underplaying it. I think . Next time we coincide at an event, I'll come say hello, and we can continue the debate, if we both have a mind to

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    Re: Do leaders need frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    ... I’m going to ask some followers if they think seeing it compliments just feeling it. We might both be surprised:
    On another leader frame matter and asking the followers:-


    At a smooth jive type class teaching followers to push their back into the leaders hand for connection.


    I used my standard light but firm connection. Never had any problem leading Mambo type steps.

    However a couple of ladies 'corrected me'. After I held them (in my view) almost ridiculously rigidly they were happy with that.

    I was perfectly comfortable I was doing it right, but as the class rotated, tried both variants, and asked the ladies which they preferred.


    Every time I asked they preferred the really rigid hold.
    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    ...However as we become more experienced and learns how to use the frame to hold the arm you will be able to relax the tone in the arms and frame generally, with the full knowledge that the tone can instantaneously be re-established when called for by their partner. Indeed relaxation of the frame is essential otherwise the dance will become a test of endurance....
    I'm still not sure if the really rigid hold was right or not.

    Particularly in light of Ant's comment above, the limited experience of some of the followers and my limited ability to sustain it for long.


    But it was an eye opener.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I was perfectly comfortable I was doing it right, but as the class rotated, tried both variants, and asked the ladies which they preferred.

    Every time I asked they preferred the really rigid hold.
    Your story makes me think of someone asking a group of people who are hard of hearing what their preferred volume is.

    There isn't one setting of rigidity that is right. In general, the more advanced the follower, the less rigidity you will need and the less ridigity she will want.

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    By Sparkles in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 30th-January-2006, 04:35 PM

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