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Thread: Do leaders need frame and balance

  1. #121
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    but I was talking about 'partner Charleston
    Me too.

    Not sure if we've misunderstood each other?

    Basically I was agreeing that Charleston is 'body lead', but also saying that its not so hard, since any movement where both couples move in the same direction is hard not to body lead.

    I'm also saying that swingouts can be body lead too, at least in my understanding of the term, even if the only physical contact are their hands. Then I harped on about trolleys to try illustrate how that can be.

    A lot of tango is easy to body lead as well. It's only when leading movements where the follower is no longer mirroring the leader that it becomes more complicated, such as ochos, which is when we normally learn about disassociation.
    Last edited by Amir; 12th-July-2010 at 03:14 PM.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    How? If the only contact is the hand, and the (arm-lead) hand is replicating the forces that the body lead would, how would you know the difference?
    Why does it matter?

    Even if its possible, it would be so much harder to consistently make your arm leads feel like body leads, that you may as well just do body leads.

    Take a manhattan for example. You could either simply step forward and back. Or you can practise for days moving just your arms forward and back at exactly the same speed and with exactly the same force and muscle tension, as if you were.

    My guess it would take you a few weeks if not months to get to the point that in a single hand hold a sensitive follower could not feel the difference.

    All of which misses the point that in partner dance we communicate more than just measurable forces, and body leads are part of what can help make that wonderful communication happen.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As a lot of leading is done in MJ by pulsing I think it would be easy to replicate a pulse provided by a body lead by keeping the body still and just moving the arm from the shoulder, elbow, wrist and hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The advantage of using the body lead is that the visual body position and the tactile leads complement & reinforce each other. It allows greater clarity in the lead.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I confess, I'm unconvinced that for a hand-to-hand connection, there's such a huge dichotomy between body leads and arm leads (that is, I'm prepared to believe that given two leaders of equal skill, the body lead will be better, but I don't really believe the "any body lead is better than any arm lead" mantra).
    All of this is convincing me that what you understand by the term 'body lead', and what I understand by it are two very different beasts... and you're right that t'internet isn't the best place to work that out.

    That said - a couple of quick clarifications. I say this is all from 'my understanding' of body leading... but my understanding is based on a lot of workshops and private lessons, over a number of years.... so I'm going to stop calling it that. Let's call it the lindy perspective on the matter.

    Visual aspects to body leading. There is no such thing. A body lead has nothing to do with a visual lead whatsoever - they are entirely different beasts. I'll go so far as to say that if you're using visual cues to lead, in my book, you're not body leading.

    Body leading techniques, at their best, let you establish a connection between your core and your partner's, usually involving some degree of tension and / or compression, and use that to lead your partner via your own body motion.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Then I harped on about trolleys to try illustrate how that can be.
    Can you harp about trolleys without mixing your metaphorical white cotton knickers in a twisting hot wash with the non-metaphorical complimentary Virgin red socks. I think the result would a suprisingly pert bottom cocooned in pink cotton and a very high voice.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    All of this is convincing me that what you understand by the term 'body lead', and what I understand by it are two very different beasts... and you're right that t'internet isn't the best place to work that out.

    -snip-

    Body leading techniques, at their best, let you establish a connection between your core and your partner's, usually involving some degree of tension and / or compression, and use that to lead your partner via your own body motion.
    I think our beasts of definition are very similar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think it depends on your definition of "frame". My own thoughts on frame for the leader are that the frame transmits body movements of the lead to the follower's frame through the hands of the leader. The frame of the leader is maintained all the time there is a relationship between the hands/arms and the body. In the closed hold the relationship of the hands/arms and the body is fairly fixed in place. In the open hold the relationship between hands/body is less fixed. The frame stretches and contracts as the hands move away from and towards the body. When the hands and body are moving in different directions it is very difficult to say that you have any kind of frame - especially when you compare this situation to the frame in the closed hold.
    However, you are completely correct that Gadget is wrong in his assertion there is a visual element to body leading. Before you know it he'll be saying there's no footwork in Modern Jive.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    However, you are completely correct that Gadget is wrong in his assertion there is a visual element to body leading.
    I agree - I regularly have the followers close their eyes so that they are relying on feel only and remove the 'visual noise'. It can be a light bulb moment for some. Well, it would be if they had their eyes open!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Before you know it he'll be saying there's no footwork in Modern Jive.
    Oh no, Please Andy - not again..!!!!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    Oh no, Please Andy - not again..!!!!
    I think we've already had my annual sermon on this subject. Did you miss it?

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Visual aspects to body leading. There is no such thing. A body lead has nothing to do with a visual lead whatsoever - they are entirely different beasts. I'll go so far as to say that if you're using visual cues to lead, in my book, you're not body leading.

    Body leading techniques, at their best, let you establish a connection between your core and your partner's, usually involving some degree of tension and / or compression, and use that to lead your partner via your own body motion.
    Here I disagree, but its probably about what we call things rather than how best to do them.

    Even in your examples, there is a visual component that reinforces the physical lead. For example, to create compression (lets say in a sugar push) you move your body towards the other person, after which both bodies will move away from each other. As a follower, the fact that there is a body in the way, perhaps moving towards you, acts as a strong visual reinforcement that to keep moving in the same directon is no longer an option.

    Other examples are similar but more complicated. Again, I'm not saying that this is the lead, but the fact that with a body lead the physical sensation is reinforced by space that either opens up or closes in, means there is a visual aspect, and part of what makes body leading more elegant and unified than pushing and pulling with your arms.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    I'm not sure anybody's metioned this recently. It's just dancing. We do it for fun.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Me too.

    Not sure if we've misunderstood each other?

    Basically I was agreeing that Charleston is 'body lead', but also saying that its not so hard, since any movement where both couples move in the same direction is hard not to body lead......
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    In 20s partner Charleston couples stand facing each other
    They are not moving in the same direction that's what confused me, mind you, it's not difficult to confuse me these days


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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Here I disagree, but its probably about what we call things rather than how best to do them.

    Even in your examples, there is a visual component that reinforces the physical lead. For example, to create compression (lets say in a sugar push) you move your body towards the other person, after which both bodies will move away from each other. As a follower, the fact that there is a body in the way, perhaps moving towards you, acts as a strong visual reinforcement that to keep moving in the same directon is no longer an option.

    Other examples are similar but more complicated. Again, I'm not saying that this is the lead, but the fact that with a body lead the physical sensation is reinforced by space that either opens up or closes in, means there is a visual aspect, and part of what makes body leading more elegant and unified than pushing and pulling with your arms.
    Taking this further, without any physical connection whatever, the simple act of moving towards your follower, and hence into her personal space, is more than likely to result in her stepping backwards - surely both a body lead AND a visual lead?!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm not sure anybody's metioned this recently. It's just dancing. We do it for fun.
    What!!! Who said you could have fun!!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    They are not moving in the same direction that's what confused me, mind you, it's not difficult to confuse me these days
    Ok, I think I understand. You mean in 20s Charleston the leader and follower are not facing the same direction. That's true. But they are moving in the same direction; when the guy taps/touches/kicks forward, the girl taps back, thus moving in the same direction at the same time.



    Hopefully the video makes what I mean more obvious: You can see both lady and man move closer to the mirror or further away at the same time.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Taking this further, without any physical connection whatever, the simple act of moving towards your follower, and hence into her personal space, is more than likely to result in her stepping backwards - surely both a body lead AND a visual lead?!?!?
    Yeah - like in the sugarpush example.

    Stepping back at the start opens more space infront of her, visually inviting a forward movement, moving towards her half way through closes that space, visually indicating to start moving backwards.

    Or in a swingout/whip/underarm turn; stepping/rocking back opens space infront of her, then turning your body sideways keeps that space open even though you either stop moving, or move in the opposite direction.

    And yes. Dancing is bags of fun. Trolley loads of it. But only if the compression on your left side and leverage on the right, during a visual lead heel spin, doesn't overbear the physical connection that passes through the observer's middle chakra, or else, um, oh. Damn. I've bored myself into a stupor. Fart jokes, anyone?

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Here I disagree, but its probably about what we call things rather than how best to do them.

    Even in your examples, there is a visual component that reinforces the physical lead. For example, to create compression (lets say in a sugar push) you move your body towards the other person, after which both bodies will move away from each other. As a follower, the fact that there is a body in the way, perhaps moving towards you, acts as a strong visual reinforcement that to keep moving in the same directon is no longer an option.

    Other examples are similar but more complicated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Yeah - like in the sugarpush example.

    Stepping back at the start opens more space infront of her, visually inviting a forward movement, moving towards her half way through closes that space, visually indicating to start moving backwards.
    It might be better to go with a more complicated example, assuming you're talking about a WCS sugar push (rather than another dance such as Lindy).

    I believe in the WCS sugar push I'm normally moving (in a direction) away from the follower until I've stopped her. After that I would move slightly towards her to body lead her away.

    While a first timer will indeed (usually) do an unled stop, I'd expect a good WCS follower to have been taught not to follow the visual lead.
    Last edited by frodo; 12th-July-2010 at 07:41 PM. Reason: grammar

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    The actual footwork is a 'styling' thing - a good lead will pick up on a follower's footwork and a good follower will pick up on the lead's footwork (normally after a couple of repetitions) The follower's position and orientation to the lead can be led by a body lead: moving them away while you move away has to be led with split timing - start them moving before you move.
    Sorry not really sure about all this Gaget.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    It might be better to go with a more complicated example, assuming you're talking about a WCS sugar push (rather than another dance such as Lindy).
    Hey! Thats not a fart joke! The Lindy and WCS sugar push is not really very different. Hmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I believe in the WCS sugar push I'm normally moving (in a direction) away from the follower until I've stopped her.
    (I know there are lots of variations and fancy theories, so I'm regretting using a sugarpush example, but...) In a standard WCS sugarpush, you step back on counts 1,2 and 3. Between counts 3 and 4 your change direction. Which is around when a) compression is created and b) you've created a visual cue for the follower to also change direction.

    I repeat, I'm not saying that body leads are visual leads. I'm just saying that there is a visual aspect, or reinforcement that happens with body leading that doesn't tend to happen with arm leading.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    While a first timer will indeed (usually) do an unlead stop,
    Thats true, but kind of proves my point. There is a strong visual incentive to stop during a sugar push, because even beginners don't want to crash. In other words, there is a visual clue as to what is about to happen. Once they learn to trust the compression, and not stop too early, that visual hint is still there.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I'd expect a good WCS follower to have been taught not to follow the visual lead.
    Notice I'm not calling it a visual lead. I'm just saying there is a visual aspect to the fact that there is a hunking great manly body in her way. The 'lead' is still the physical compression created. But notice also, in a sugar push if you let go of both her hands on count 2, she knows to put her hand on your chest and create the compression thusly, because she can see that you're in the way.

    And then, on count 4, she should fart.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    And then, on count 4, she should fart.
    That might work in AT. But in MJ all farting is done by the guys on silent "p" between the 1 & 8. Although, for some reason I'm thinking "Tena Lady", whatever that means

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    That might work in AT. But in MJ all farting is done by the guys on silent "p" between the 1 & 8. Although, for some reason I'm thinking "Tena Lady", whatever that means
    never silent Andy too much info


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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It's just dancing. We do it for fun.
    This is the truth. It is nothing but the truth (well - if you get rid of the word 'just'). But it is not the whole truth

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Originally Posted by Franck
    My own personal preference is for 'Inner Connection'. What it means is that your body is moving and behaving as a coherent unit, rather than a semi-disjointed sum of body parts. In that definition, it is crucial for Followers to have frame, so they can be led by the hand rather than from a direct full body hold.
    Although I agree with all that say above I can't help feeling there is mixing of terms. I feel that the frame is those parts of the body around the core. The core being centre of the body. The frame is used to transmit messages within the partnership in order to effect a weight change or step. The core is the moveable part within the frame initially moving in the opposite direction to the direction of the free leg along either of the two horizontal axes to provide balance by allowing the the body weight to be placed over the standing leg, in order to provide this leg with the best connection with the floor, when the free leg is moving to initiate a step. And is that part we finally move to the required timing with the music when finalising a step or weight change.
    Do Leaders (or indeed Followers) break the Frame (or Inner Connection) when dancing? Yes, definitely, and indeed they should. Isolation and disconnection give the dance the flexibility and variety we see on dance floors and opens up the possibility of Style variations otherwise impossible.

    I do not think the frame is broken during these periods, for instance there will always be enough tone in the frame to maintain the required alignment between each partner. However as we become more experienced and learns how to use the frame to hold the arm you will be able to relax the tone in the arms and frame generally, with the full knowledge that the tone can instantaneously be re-established when called for by their partner. Indeed relaxation of the frame is essential otherwise the dance will become a test of endurance.
    One of the problems of Frame for Leaders and Body Leading in general, is that when using good connection with our partners, the smallest movements are amplified and passed on to our partners, this means in practice that every stumble or mistake is magnified.
    I would have thought that this was a positive attribute because the smaller the movement in the leader the less it disturbs the follower and the more she can concentrate on her step without having to adjust for the initiating movement in the leader.
    Vertical Inner Connection is sadly under-rated and refers to consistent movement between shoulders, hips and feet. Basic rule is that each shoulder should remain above its respective hip and the foot on which you are weighted (balanced). This is important when stepping back, walking, turning, spinning or twisting. Identifying when the weight is fully transferred to one foot or the other should be obvious by the vertical axis created by Foot - Hip - Shoulder.
    Again I agree with the above but I would call this the vertical axis or vertical line of balance. Not only is the body alignment in the manner you stated necessary to maintain balance during the next step or weight change because once the hips are past neutral it will put your core out of vertical alignment. This axis is also important for both partners to be able to control the direction and speed of movement. Whereby although the weight of the body is forward there is also an upward conscienceness along this axis. Otherwise only the partner with the greater forward force will be able to control speed and direction along the horizontal axes.

    Originally Posted by Gadget
    A traveling return can be led without contact, with the lead's hands behind their back.
    I would suggest that this can only be done by using a visual lead akin to a verbal message as opposed to a chest to chest alignment lead that is akin to a body or frame lead. I accept that when leading by using chest alignment you can lead a follower in whatever direction required so long as the chest to chest alignment to remains, is akin to frame leading. Once you lead a turn without turning with the follower you are therefore breaking the chest alignment and the turn can only be done using a visual signal that the follower will already be instructed to follow and is therefore not a frame or body led movement.

    Originally posted by Frodo
    The other observation is that visually some good jive leaders don't look great dancing (this isn't a comment on their looks). However good jive followers seem to seldom suffer from this..
    Originally posted by David Bailey
    I agree, but I suspect that's not "frame", that's posture / styling.
    I think that although styling is part of the answer, I also think that good leaders aim to make their movement as small as possible in order to produce the required movement in the follower and a very small movement by the leader can produce a very large movement in the follower, as mentioned above. Hence the follower will have a much better look than the leader.

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