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Thread: Do leaders need frame and balance

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Thee question is therefore:
    If I create a body lead, but noone is following, is it still a body lead?
    Ah, a philosophical question.

    One argument is that is is still a body lead because it would be if someone was there to follow. Why would it not be a body lead if it's the same movement when nobody follows?

    Another argument is that there can only be a body lead where there is somebody to follow that lead. After all, you can only be a leader if you have a follower.

    My answer is to go to the bar and get another drink.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    but visual cues and body positioning are also integral to successful body leading.
    Strongly disagree about the visual cues. They are nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm talking about when I say 'body lead'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The question is therefore:
    If I create a body lead, but noone is following, is it still a body lead?
    No. Without a partner, there is no lead. Yes, I could produce the same physical movements, but I need some degree of physical connection to actually be leading something. Otherwise I'm just moving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Put another way, does leading require a physical matching body follow to be called a body lead?
    Yes. Or even to be called a lead.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The question is therefore:
    If I create a body lead, but noone is following, is it still a body lead?

    Put another way, does leading require a physical matching body follow to be called a body lead?
    Been thinking about this a little more. To me, it's ... the wrong question. I'm afraid I'm going to use Lindy terms to describe this, but it should translate OK, I think.

    Say I'm going to lead something (a swingout, or Lindy Turn, for example) - so I have a stand open position left to right handhold, and I want to lead my partner forward on the 1, while stepping back myself. To prepare for this, I'll already be using 7 & 8 to build up tension between us - so that when I step back for 1, that leads my partner forwards. Now the degree of tension that's built up will depend very much on the moment, the energy of the dance, what's going on in the music, and very importantly, my partner's response as I start the build-up - in other words, some factors that are under my control, and some that are not so. How I do that body lead on 1 will depend entirely on the degree of tension we've built up - and crucially, if there's absolutely no tension there whatsoever, the connection is gone, and I cannot lead the move in any fun way. So I won't try - it's a non-starter - I'll just do something else & find ways to reconnect.

    To refer to a discussion on another thread - this is also some of the concepts like leading by following & conversations can start coming into play...

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    ............Say I'm going to lead something (a swingout, or Lindy Turn, for example) etc...
    I am confused are you talking about 'body' leads ??? I found I needed to learn the timing and steps before I could even follow a swingout - and then the lead was from the hand not the body

    However, partner charleston is a body lead (I think) and both parties would need both frame and balance

    Please correct me if I am wrong


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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Please correct me if I am wrong
    I wouldn't dare correct you, even if you were wrong

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The question is therefore:
    If I create a body lead, but noone is following, is it still a body lead?
    In my opinion a lead is a consequence of actions you take, not the action itself. This is true also of resistence/tension, leverage, compression... all those connection things.

    Its like a punch - it only causes pain if there is someone there. And in my case, probably not even then.

    But you can practise the movement that causes a lead/pain very effectively by yourself, and you can practise many elements of what causes pleasurable following by yourself, which is why my opinion is what it was on the 'solo dancing' thread.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    I am confused are you talking about 'body' leads ??? I found I needed to learn the timing and steps before I could even follow a swingout - and then the lead was from the hand not the body

    However, partner charleston is a body lead (I think) and both parties would need both frame and balance

    Please correct me if I am wrong
    I think this is how most people understand body lead: Its when a movement is initiated from the body.

    If you're both moving in the same direction its only natural.

    Its like if you're pushing a trolley along - it moves because you keep walking, not because you keep pushing away with your arms.

    But lets say you're moving in opposite directions. If the trolley is empty you could just push it away with your arms. That’s an arm lead.

    If its heavy, you'll instinctively lean towards the trolley and follow through with your arms. That’s a body lead.

    If you ordered your shopping online, that’s a dotcom lead.

    The thing is, when moving in the same direction, like in the trolley example, you don't need to 'create frame.' If, before pushing a trolley, you think ‘now I need to create frame’ or you make a visual cue, or you shout ‘frame!’ please email me your shopping list . I will be fascinated.

    If on the other hand you put your hands on the bar, and start walking, you already have all the skills you need to be a good leader.

    In basic 20s and side by side Charleston both couples move in the same direction, so there is a natural body lead. This is true for jive moves like mambo steps as well.
    In swing outs and most ceroc moves, you move in opposite directions. So if you want to use a body lead (ie initiate changes of direction from your body and not your arms) then you may need someone to explain how.

    I’ve found most people who try to do ‘frame’ use way too much tension, which is like pushing an empty trolley but tensing your arms really hard for no reason. So I would say don’t try and do frame.
    .
    How anyone can question that you need balance I don’t understand. You need balance to stand up. If someone thinks you can dance without it, that is when we say ‘you’re off your trolley.’

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    In basic 20s and side by side Charleston both couples move in the same direction
    but I was talking about 'partner Charleston

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In 20s partner Charleston couples stand facing each other in a traditional European partner dancing pose, often referred to as closed position which aids leading and following. The leader's right hand is placed on the follower's back between their shoulder blades. The follower's left hand rests on the leader's shoulder or biceps. The leader's left hand and the follower's right hand are clasped palm to palm, held either at shoulder height or higher. Partners may maintain space between their bodies or dance with their torsos touching
    Ah well, spose I'm wrong anyway

    But I DO know that Tango is body led


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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    I am confused are you talking about 'body' leads ??? I found I needed to learn the timing and steps before I could even follow a swingout - and then the lead was from the hand not the body
    I've heard some debate over the degree of arm lead in the swingout - some of the top teachers have preached pure body lead, while others have told me recently that at higher speeds (200bpm+), a degree of arm leading should come into play - and I've been taught the swingout both ways - but for me, it's always felt best when purely body led.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    The thing is, when moving in the same direction, like in the trolley example, you don't need to 'create frame.'
    I don't really think of it as 'frame', but for any sort of body leading, I find the best thing is to maintain a relaxed engagement (without tension) of core, back and shoulder muscles, and to try to 'connect' those up. It's about as close to using (what I think of as) frame as I tend to go, but I try to apply it to most aspects of my dancing.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Its like if you're pushing a trolley along - it moves because you keep walking, not because you keep pushing away with your arms.

    But lets say you're moving in opposite directions. If the trolley is empty you could just push it away with your arms. That’s an arm lead.

    If its heavy, you'll instinctively lean towards the trolley and follow through with your arms. That’s a body lead.
    But you need to think about what the trolley feels. It only feels the movement of the hand. It doesn't know if the body followed the hand in compression or moved away from the hand in opposition.

    Do trolleys have feelings? Some of them seem very moody.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But you need to think about what the trolley feels. It only feels the movement of the hand. It doesn't know if the body followed the hand in compression or moved away from the hand in opposition.
    Substitute a human follower instead of a trolley, and she/he can easily tell. Maybe trolleys can too. Have you asked one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Do trolleys have feelings? Some of them seem very moody.
    The moody ones respond better to body leads. I've tried. You need to take the time to learn how your trolley moves, and to understand it. Then you can truly start to enjoy the shopping experience as a connected, united team.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Substitute a human follower instead of a trolley, and she/he can easily tell.
    How? If the only contact is the hand, and the (arm-lead) hand is replicating the forces that the body lead would, how would you know the difference?

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    How? If the only contact is the hand, and the (arm-lead) hand is replicating the forces that the body lead would, how would you know the difference?
    I think the follower would or could "know" the difference if they were watching. They would see your body in a different place if the lead was body or arm. But I don't think they could feel the difference in the lead.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think the follower would or could "know" the difference if they were watching. They would see your body in a different place if the lead was body or arm. But I don't think they could feel the difference in the lead.
    Yes I know, and I actually think this is important in real dancing too (in that body positioning gives the follower important information about what you are likely to do next). But I was interested to see what straycat would say.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    How? If the only contact is the hand, and the (arm-lead) hand is replicating the forces that the body lead would, how would you know the difference?
    It's very, very difficult to lead the same from the arm as it is from the body. Mostly because I can move my hand a lot faster than my body (I bet if you clap your hands, your hands will be moving much faster than you could run). There are other physics involved - mostly around mass and acceleration - that I could use to explain it. You also have the fact that your hand is less stable and more likely to move erratically.

    I suppose you could do it, if you really tried. And concentrated very hard. But it's mostly a lot easier to lead primarily from the body, particularly when your leading the initial acceleration and final deceleration in each movement. The impact is usually a much smoother and clearer lead.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    How? If the only contact is the hand, and the (arm-lead) hand is replicating the forces that the body lead would, how would you know the difference?
    Trick question - an arm lead doesn't 'replicate' said forces. It's a different lead, done in a different way, using different forces. So it does not feel the same.

    You might tell me that you can make an arm lead feel the same as a body lead. Personally, I don't think I can, so I'm going by my own experience on this one.

    [edit]Beaten to the punch. That's what comes of leaving a post for ten minutes to do something else[/edit]

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Trick question - an arm lead doesn't 'replicate' said forces. It's a different lead, done in a different way, using different forces. So it does not feel the same.

    You might tell me that you can make an arm lead feel the same as a body lead. Personally, I don't think I can, so I'm going by my own experience on this one.
    As a lot of leading is done in MJ by pulsing I think it would be easy to replicate a pulse provided by a body lead by keeping the body still and just moving the arm from the shoulder, elbow, wrist and hand. However, I can't see why you'd want to do that other than to prove somebody right/wrong.

    Most leads are a bit of both. I used to say "you start her moving with your body and finish her off with your hand" but those boys in the back row started sniggering and flicking ink pellets

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Trick question - an arm lead doesn't 'replicate' said forces. It's a different lead, done in a different way, using different forces. So it does not feel the same.

    You might tell me that you can make an arm lead feel the same as a body lead. Personally, I don't think I can, so I'm going by my own experience on this one.
    I thought we were stipulating that the forces were being replicated.

    I confess, I'm unconvinced that for a hand-to-hand connection, there's such a huge dichotomy between body leads and arm leads (that is, I'm prepared to believe that given two leaders of equal skill, the body lead will be better, but I don't really believe the "any body lead is better than any arm lead" mantra). But I'm also convinced it will be a fruitless discussion over the internet, so...

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    My understanding of a colombian is that the lead does a grapevine at the same time as the lady.

    To lead this you have to lead forwards with you body, causing her to step back, whilst your stepping back at the same time.

    This is not just a 'body lead' is a 'countra-body' lead.

    Which means you have to twist your body in the opposite direction to you legs. It's really difficult.

    There are some easier versions where you step forward while she steps back, I think that's maybe what your talking about.

    I call that the 'easy columbian' and the other one the 'hard columbian'.

    Hope that clears it up Gaget.

    The actual footwork is a 'styling' thing - a good lead will pick up on a follower's footwork and a good follower will pick up on the lead's footwork (normally after a couple of repetitions) The follower's position and orientation to the lead can be led by a body lead: moving them away while you move away has to be led with split timing - start them moving before you move.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Seems we're down to a clash of nomenclature again. I regard a completely 'non-contact' lead as an entirely different beast from body leading... a body lead (in the definition I work with) requires physical contact points between partners, basically to connect the leader's core to the follower's core. Remove that connection, and it becomes a visual lead. (Or a telepathic one, depending on the leader's and/or follower's level of psychic ability )
    But if you have no contact, then the only cues that the follower has to pick up on are visual from the body. If I can lead the follower with the position and movement of my body without physical contact, then all I need to do is engage a frame and they should follow with ease.

    You can blindfold your partner and they are only following the tactile leads - the movement can be initiated from body or hands - there are no visual cues to follow. It doesn't really matter how the movement is initiated as long as the follower understands it and can follow.

    The advantage of using the body lead is that the visual body position and the tactile leads complement & reinforce each other. It allows greater clarity in the lead. It also allows a contrast to be shown when I want to use body or arms for styling: drop one connection and lead from the other source.

    Personally my hand/arm leading is far superior to my body leading: I can wave my hands and conduct a follower in all sorts of contortions without moving much my self and without really applying any sort of body lead. Using body leads I can't do nearly as much and I can't compensate as quickly. {Fortunately I seldom dance using only one form of leading }

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The actual footwork is a 'styling' thing - a good lead will pick up on a follower's footwork and a good follower will pick up on the lead's footwork (normally after a couple of repetitions)
    This is, of course, poor following or following that compensates for a poor lead. The lead's footwork is styling. He/she can choose where to put their feet. In the closed hold you really don't want the follow to decide on their footwork for style reasons unless it's been led.

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