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Thread: Do leaders need frame and balance

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Oh, I have an idea what he's 'getting at' too. But once he starts saying "Andy's definition of frame is no good", then I think it's incumbent upon him to provide a definition of his own that is, at minimum, self-consistent.
    So arms are not part of the frame? That's a curious statement in itself.

    In ballroom you have a few basic holds - open and closed are the two simple ones. In both you have a frame. In both the arms are an important part of the frame. You change the hold by changing the shape of your frame - by moving your arms and twisting your torso at the hips and shoulders. You do all of this without breaking the frame. But if you do it at the wrong time, you mess up the dance.

    The definition I offered is much the same. Your arms are part of your frame, but in modern jive, you can change the shape of your frame - primarily by moving your arms. Doing this does not break the frame. However, as Frank points out, if you need to think and act differently when leading vs when just connected.

    What I object to is the arbitrary notion that something turning so your arm goes behind you breaks the frame. That just doesn't make sense to me.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Out of curiosity, do you think there are moves (or movements) that require you to break frame, as opposed to intentionally breaking frame to add variation?
    Yes and no, depending on how wide your definition of Frame is.

    For example the multiple ladies Comb (Shower of Combs?) where you take both hands over the ladies head alternatively and repeat requires both the leader and follower to break the arms connection from the frame to allow them to travel freely above the follower's head without her turning or literally following the hand in a step back.
    In that case, the frame would appear to be broken but from my perspective I would be likely to introduce a new point of connection (knee to knee level) to maintain the outer connection and would therefore also maintain my inner frame connection and lead from it at the end of the move.
    In effect, I don't consider disconnecting the arms a breach of Frame, provided that the aim wasn't to lead the body in the first place and the hands / arms are not used to connect.

    So to answer your question simply, no, I cannot think of any move where the frame (as I defined it above) would require to be broken other than through choice to add contrast and variety.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    This all hinges on what you call Leading.
    In the Travelling return above, you are Leading the 'travelling bit' by stepping back (which is a body lead) and then raising your hand to lead the turn, which you describe as Arm lead. When your partner walks past you you are also angling your body towards her, effectively body leading a rotation. The raising of the arm is only confirmation of the lead by allowing her frame to follow your own rotation under her arm (as opposed to blocking it if the hand remained low). Once the Travel Lead and the Rotate Lead are given, the followers will continue travelling until stopped or led in a different direction - A dancer's version of the principle of Inertia.

    Similarly in the Illusion Turns, The original turn will (should) be body led, and once the lady is already turning, it takes very little extra lead to keep her turning. The pulsing I use would be generated from a body lead and transmitted via the hands.

    In my understanding of Leading, we only need to lead acceleration (or slow down), this includes changes of direction. Once we have given momentum, or change of direction, the followers will continue in that direction and at that speed until slowed down again or re-directed. Connection is always there however, and I can't think of any move where the Inner connection principles I quoted above would have to be broken during the lead. This doesn't mean that I maintain full Inner Connection at all time, occasionally I might break my frame, even during simple moves, but only briefly and whilst the Follower is continuing on a momentum path, is disconnected from me, or is static and not being led.
    I agree with you that movement initiation of the above examples (leading the 'travelling bit') by stepping back is a body lead and that is how it should be. But the rest of it I find myself in disagreement with you, both are good examples of good arm leading......!

    Try this, put on a long sleeve sweatshisrt take your arms out of the sleeves get your follower to hold the sleeve, now see if you can lead the above patterns........ You can't! Oh and you cant shout "spin"

    My conclusion is: Not all arm leading is bad, Body leading isnt always sufficient. However good conection is always rquired.
    Last edited by mikeyr; 8th-July-2010 at 03:22 PM. Reason: Didnt want to chop my arm off...!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    For example the multiple ladies Comb (Shower of Combs?)
    Ahh, the Combine 'arvester.

    As Franck grew up in France he may not have come across this "West Country Swing" song - ooh aah ooh aah.

    I Got a Brand New Combine Harvester (and I'll Give You the Key)
    I drove my tractor through your hay stack last night
    (ooh aah ooh aah)
    I threw me pitchfork at your dog to keep quiet
    ( ooh aah ooh aah)
    Now somethings telling me
    That you'm avoiding me
    Come on now darlin you've got something i need

    Chorus:
    Cuz i got a brand new combine harvester
    An ill give you the key
    Come on now lets get together in perfect harmony
    I got twenty acres
    An' you got forty three
    Now i got a brand new combine harvester
    An' ill give you the key.


    Just reading the lyrics I can't get the tune out of my head.

    This be proper English heritage. Franck may not want to succumb
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 8th-July-2010 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    I agree with you that movement initiation of the above examples (leading the 'travelling bit') by stepping back is a body lead and that is how it should be. But the rest of it I find myself in disagreement with you, both are good examples of good arm leading......!

    Try this, put on a long sleeve sweatshisrt take your arms out of the sleeves get your follower to hold the sleeve, now see if you can lead the above patterns........ You can't! Oh and you cant shout "spin"

    My conclusion is: Not all arm leading is bad, Body leading isnt always sufficient. However good conection is always rquired.
    I agree with your conclusions and pretty explicitly said the same in my original post. I don't see why you mention the sleeve exercise as nobody is disputing we need connection with our partner. (as an aside I often use ribbons or string to replicate your experiment and provided the follower match the tension on the string or sleeve, it would be trivially easy to lead the turn. The only thing missing would be the option to lift the follower's had above her head which is crucial if you're leading a turn rather than a spin).

    The discussion hinged on whether we broke the frame or inner connection during specific moves, and I explained that if I was body-leading then I would maintain my definition of frame. I wasn't saying this was the only or best way to lead those moves (though that would be my preferred way). I went to great length to point out that arm leads were not necessarily a bad or worse thing than body leads.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    I agree with you that movement initiation of the above examples (leading the 'travelling bit') by stepping back is a body lead and that is how it should be. But the rest of it I find myself in disagreement with you, both are good examples of good arm leading......!

    Try this, put on a long sleeve sweatshisrt take your arms out of the sleeves get your follower to hold the sleeve, now see if you can lead the above patterns........ You can't! Oh and you cant shout "spin"
    There are more aspects to body leading, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Vertical Inner Connection is sadly under-rated and refers to consistent movement between shoulders, hips and feet.
    Basic rule is that each shoulder should remain above its respective hip and the foot on which you are weighted (balanced). This is important when stepping back, walking, turning, spinning or twisting. Identifying when the weight is fully transferred to one foot or the other should be obvious by the vertical axis created by Foot - Hip - Shoulder.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    One of my ballroom teachers used to say, "always keep your feet under your weight". That was his way of telling us the same thing. It's a lesson that's always stuck with me.
    My ballroom teacher used to screech "POSTURE" followed by a warm-hearted "luvvie".

    I got the message.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    My ballroom teacher used to screech "POSTURE" followed by a warm-hearted "luvvie".

    I got the message.
    Posture is not the same thing as what I called vertical connection. Whilst good posture might help it is not sufficient.
    What I refer to is the need for the body to move coherently and as one unit, rather than disconnected. For example it is possible to twist your torso independently of your hips and feet whilst maintaining good upper body posture but your vertical connection or frame would be disengaged.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post

    What I refer to is the need for the body to move coherently and as one unit, rather than disconnected. For example it is possible to twist your torso independently of your hips and feet whilst maintaining good upper body posture but your vertical connection or frame would be disengaged.
    But isn't this just how the first move turnout is usually taught? Left foot back - rotating the hips anticlockwise. Turning the follower out - requiring the upper body to rotate clockwise. Some can carry this off reasonably elegantly, but many are driven to bend forward very awkwardly.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    Surely the frame is the totality, half provided by the follower and half provided by the leader - sealed, if you like, by the connection? And invidious to suggest that one half is intrinsically more important than the other?
    I think this is true in the relatively fleeting moments where WCS and Jive act like single axis dances.

    For example pivot turns. If either partner collapses their frame, it doesn't work well at any speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Also, it helps if both partners have frame, as otherwise any decent frame I might be attempting to provide will be pointless.
    Outside single axis moments above, a principal reason for asking the thread question is that it seems to me that it isn't pointless.


    The easiest example that makes this apparent is a WCS push break (sugar push), frequently taught as one of the first WCS moves.

    The leader applies enough force to stop the lady crashing into him, through her arm(s). A leader does not need frame to apply a force. However if the follower has no frame that force would stop her arms but not her body.

    Whether a crash results or it goes wrong in another way, benefits of followers frame quickly become apparent.


    There is no such easy lesson regarding the leaders frame.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I've had a busy week, so little time to read and get involved in this thread. The original question is I think very important, and I wish Frodo had come back to clarify his own views, beyond asking the question
    It was more a question as a result of observations. I didn't have a strong view on the matter.

    Observation 1

    I don't think I've heard more about leaders frame in WCS classes than I have in jive classes (lots more about followers frame though).

    Hence skepticism at the idea that good jive leaders lack frame, or would benefit from WCS classes in that regard.

    (For leaders to lack frame they would a) not have frame/sufficient frame and b) have needed frame in the first place).


    Observation 2

    The other observation is that visually some good jive leaders don't look great dancing (this isn't a comment on their looks). However good jive followers seem to seldom suffer from this.

    (Teachers and demos, when teaching/demonstrating how to dance are a handy proxy for good jive leaders / followers).

    But it isn't/wasn't apparent to me that frame is the problem (as I took to be implied by the post I created this thread in response to).

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    What I refer to is the need for the body to move coherently and as one unit, rather than disconnected. For example it is possible to twist your torso independently of your hips and feet whilst maintaining good upper body posture but your vertical connection or frame would be disengaged.
    I think that you can lift your diaphragm and engage your core muscles and keep a vertical internal connection even when twisting your torso separately from your hips and feet -- analagous to a (vertical) [torsion] spring. It's good for prep'ing rotational movements -- and for leading circular travel (where the lead is at the centre of the circle).

    SpinDr

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    "A good way to lead it is to use ‘frame’. Just shout 'frame' a few counts before trying to lead the move". ~ Amir
    Oh how embarrassing for old posts to be dug up, when so much has changed.

    For one thing, I’m older now, and the main thing that gets me dancing is the hope that it will lead to sex. So the last thing I want to do is encourage frame – how would I distinguish between a real lover and Cassandra, my mannequin? You can’t believe the embarrassment when I call out the wrong name…

    Shouting ‘frame!’ simply causes people to tense up, since they associate it with hard rigid structures like scaffolding, walking aids and Roger Rabbit. A little bit of stiffness in the right place is fine, but often lasts too long and gets a little uncomfortable, and frankly, some people never recover.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Oh how embarrassing for old posts to be dug up, when so much has changed.
    I've got it bookmarked. There is no escape

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    For one thing, I’m older now, and the main thing that gets me dancing is the hope that it will lead to sex.
    What? No one told me people were having naughty sex encounters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    So the last thing I want to do is encourage frame – how would I distinguish between a real lover and Cassandra, my mannequin? You can’t believe the embarrassment when I call out the wrong name…
    Easy, just rename her. Or the mannequin.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    It was more a question as a result of observations. I didn't have a strong view on the matter.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Observation 1

    I don't think I've heard more about leaders frame in WCS classes than I have in jive classes (lots more about followers frame though).
    Tango classes don'tt talk about frame - it's more embrace, connection and posture.

    I don't know if what AT people call "embrace" is synonymous with what other dance styles call "frame". I suspect it's similar, but maybe not identical.

    I'm not sure that "frame" is that useful in MJ - but then I think there's some debate about what "frame" means, so I could be confused.

    But one obvious example where frame does not seem immediately irrelevant is the side-to-side.

    I also think that an intrinsic part of "standard" Modern Jive is deliberately breaking and regaining the connection as part of a move. So again, frame may not be so useful there.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Observation 2

    The other observation is that visually some good jive leaders don't look great dancing (this isn't a comment on their looks). However good jive followers seem to seldom suffer from this..
    I agree, but I suspect that's not "frame", that's posture / styling.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Posture is not the same thing as what I called vertical connection. Whilst good posture might help it is not sufficient.
    What I refer to is the need for the body to move coherently and as one unit, rather than disconnected. For example it is possible to twist your torso independently of your hips and feet whilst maintaining good upper body posture but your vertical connection or frame would be disengaged.

    In extended dances like MJ, good posture is purely aesthetic, Francks explanation of body leading shows this. Even a hunchback can lead well if they can move as one unit!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Posture is not the same thing as what I called vertical connection. Whilst good posture might help it is not sufficient.
    What I refer to is the need for the body to move coherently and as one unit, rather than disconnected. For example it is possible to twist your torso independently of your hips and feet whilst maintaining good upper body posture but your vertical connection or frame would be disengaged.
    I think it's all semantics, but having the correct combination of good posture and a proper frame would mean that you also have what Franck is calling "vertical connection". However, I like the description and might start using it in workshops.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    For one thing, I’m older now, and the main thing that gets me dancing is the hope that it will lead to sex.
    Wait 'til you get to my age. There is "hope" involved in sex, but it's nothing to do with opportunity, more to do with performance

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    In extended dances like MJ, good posture is purely aesthetic, Francks explanation of body leading shows this. Even a hunchback can lead well if they can move as one unit!
    This thinking takes you down a road where you wonder if you could lead using a hand glued to a fork-lift truck

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    In extended dances like MJ, good posture is purely aesthetic, Francks explanation of body leading shows this. Even a hunchback can lead well if they can move as one unit!
    I confess, I fail to follow how you arrived at these conclusions. Or, for that matter, what you mean by them. Would you mind expanding on this a little?

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