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Thread: Do leaders need frame and balance

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post

    Most definitely not: each dancer has their own frame, the two are completely separate (and in many parts of MJ, they are physically separated) and each dancer owns and controls their frame. This is important because each partner can change the shape of their frame - and often does. Any time you change the angle of your arms relative to your body in the horizontal plane, you're changing the shape of your frame. This can be done without breaking the frame or breaking the connection (opening out in a first move is a really clear example of this). A good frame makes most things easier in dancing. For example, if I'm free spinning (with no connection to my partner), I think of it as spinning my frame.

    Finally, frame doesn't mean the bolt upright posture that you see in ballroom. It also doesn't mean rigidity. It just means that you maintain your body shape.
    I respect your opinion, of course, but stand by my view that what I will term the 'dance' frame is more than the sum of its parts. Yes, I have my own 'personal' frame which I carry around all the time (the jest about a Zimmer is much too close to the truth to entertain). That frame I see as being created and maintained by a finely tuned inner muscular tension, or tone, controlled, much of the time without any conscious thought, by my central nervous system. Without that, I would collapse in a heap upon the floor - core an' all.

    Once I enter into a contract to dance I cease to fully 'own' my frame and, whilst a connection of whatever sort exists, I relinquish some degree of control. As does my partner. The two are no longer 'completely separate' and each must be prepared to adapt to the other and, indeed, to other external factors.

    But, really, I believe we are in danger of engaging in mere semantics where in essence we are largely in agreement. It's good to think; better, perhaps, to just dance.

  2. #42
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m not certain I follow exactly what Geoff is trying to say myself, but I think he’s getting at something like this.
    Oh, I have an idea what he's 'getting at' too. But once he starts saying "Andy's definition of frame is no good", then I think it's incumbent upon him to provide a definition of his own that is, at minimum, self-consistent.

    It is probably the mathmo (aka supreme pedant) in me that reflexively looks at a definition and looks for internal contradictions. But I do think I'm not just being picky here, because I'm honestly left feeling there's a bit of "Frame is what you have when you're doing it right", as opposed to a definition sufficiently specific that you can use to tell if someone's doing it right.

    [To sidetrack to something we've discussed previously: Geoff's description reminds me of 'explanations' from Skippy Blair. It's much better at telling us that frame is good, frame makes your dancing better, etc. than it is at telling us what frame actually is].

    I think the point he’s trying to make about the hands is that it isn’t so important that they stay in one place relative to the body, much like the arms on a forklift do. What is important is that they have enough tone in them that they can transmit the movement of the body when needed to lead.
    I would agree, but then I also think your choice of word is telling: 'tone' is much more descriptive here than 'frame'.

    I’m confused as to whether the two are debating something significant or
    just a point of semantics.
    Certainly my experience in these discussions is that there's far more difference in the way people talk about what they do than there is in what they actually do. (And you can read that sentence in many different ways... )

    To be able to body lead you need to move your core/torso pretty much as a single unit.
    I can't resist pointing out that to simply avoid falling into a mass of steaming internal organs, you need to move your core/torso pretty much as a single unit. Which is fatuous, but I do think people tend to do this reasonably well by default. 90% of the time I think of someone having poor frame, it's not their core that's the problem, it's spaghetti arms.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    HTH.
    Are you Jim? Or do you control Jim with mental powers? Its rude to answer for people you know

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Are you Jim? Or do you control Jim with mental powers? Its rude to answer for people you know
    But I don't know Jim, - so I guess that's okay

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    If I move my arms independently when I'm in tension or compression, then this is arm leading.
    Is all arm leading bad......? Just thinking, cos that would leading traveling turns (which are all arm lead) bad

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Is all arm leading bad......? Just thinking, cos that would leading traveling turns (which are all arm lead) bad
    Of course you could lead a travelling return with just the arms and keep your body completely still. However, it's also possible to lead using a combination of arm and body leads. It's how I teach it and how I see it being done by many dancers, not just the ones I've taught.

    I often say to guys that they shouldn't just stand there waving their arms about and expect the ladies to follow their hands. To do this means they are treating the lady like an attractive cloak that they wave as some kind of decoration. The lead needs to join in with the dance and move their feet. Once they start moving their feet and have tone in their arms they are starting to lead using their frame.*

    *Yes, I know you don't have to move your feet to lead with your frame, you need to move your centre, but they do have to start somewhere rather than stay rooted to the spot for fear of putting a foot wrong.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I often say to guys that they shouldn't just stand there waving their arms about and expect the ladies to follow their hands. To do this means they are treating the lady like an attractive cloak that they wave as some kind of decoration. The lead needs to join in with the dance and move their feet. Once they start moving their feet and have tone in their arms they are starting to lead using their frame.*
    I don't think that's what Mikey is saying (and I think it unlikely a MJ showcase winner is standing around waving his arms with planted feet). But one fairly classic way of leading a slotted travelling return is 'step back to start the follow travelling down the slot, raise the arm and step out of the slot, follower natural turns under the arm as you step back into the slot'. And so the actual *turn* is somewhat arm-lead.

    For a much more clear cut example, consider a sequence of travelling illusion spins. I'd consider that basically 100% arm lead.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I don't think that's what Mikey is saying
    Agreed. MikeyR is asking a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But one fairly classic way of leading a slotted travelling return is 'step back to start the follow travelling down the slot, raise the arm and step out of the slot, follower natural turns under the arm as you step back into the slot'. And so the actual *turn* is somewhat arm-lead.
    Agreed again. The "step back" bit is a body lead and the turn bit is arm led.

    N.B. I teach the travelling return slightly differently as I have the lead step off the followers line of dance and lunge slightly to the right, more of a knee bend to the right than a movement of the feet, away from the lady to initiate the follower's travel. I then raise my hand across the followers face and keep it still with the fingers pointing down as the follower's travel makes the turn happen as they pass under my arm step pivoting 180 degrees around my fingers.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Please tell me this was a joke.....


    Mind you, I now want to try that "shouting 'frame'" thing...

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    I've had a busy week, so little time to read and get involved in this thread. The original question is I think very important, and I wish Frodo had come back to clarify his own views, beyond asking the question:
    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post

    In both Modern Jive and WCS it is very clear that frame makes a big difference to the follower.

    But why should it matter for leaders ?
    As David Franklin asked, it is first crucial to define Frame, and this is why I dislike the word 'Frame' it conjures up images of stiffness and straight posture (typically Ballroom Hold) and is therefore not helpful.

    My own personal preference is for 'Inner Connection' (as opposed to 'Outer Connection' which is with your partner(s)). What it means is that your body is moving and behaving as a coherent unit, rather than a semi-disjointed sum of body parts. In that definition, it is crucial for Followers to have frame, so they can be led by the hand rather than from a direct full body hold.
    For Leaders, as Gadget pointed out, it is possible to dance without any frame, and effectively lead from disconnected arms only. This will not make for a great experience for followers (as many pointed out on this thread) though it is perfectly possible for a Leader to replicate the feel of body lead and connection with only arm leads. This is why I often teach that arm leads are not intrinsically bad or worse than 'body leads'. Having said that, it would be very difficult to understand the feel of body leading without having experienced it first, so replicating it might be unlikely for someone who has only learnt / danced with Arm Leads.

    Do Leaders (or indeed Followers) break the Frame (or Inner Connection) when dancing? Yes, definitely, and indeed they should. Isolation and disconnection give the dance the flexibility and variety we see on dance floors and opens up the possibility of Style variations otherwise impossible.
    The crucial thing is that the Frame / Inner connection should not be broken at the time of Lead. When leading (and following a lead), both leaders and followers should engage their frame. If Followers disconnect their frame, they are not following, but deliberately ignoring the lead (a kind of Hi-jack). If the Leader disconnect their frame, they cause a more subtle impact on the dance. They lose a lot of energy provided by body movement (as opposed to arm strength) and as a result, lose the subtlety that a flexing in leg muscles or tensing up of stomach muscles or rolling of shoulder etc. All movement becomes led from the arm only, and that's a very limited range, and typically (though not necessarily) cruder.

    One of the problems of Frame for Leaders and Body Leading in general, is that when using good connection with our partners, the smallest movements are amplified and passed on to our partners, this means in practise that every stumble or mistake is magnified. When Leaders are learning to dance, they are better off with a limited frame until they learn to control their balance and position.

    Finally, Frame does not preclude moving your hand independently from your body. There are a few rules relating to the Connected Arm movements and Frame:

    • The elbow should not travel behind the line of your back. (This would be collapsing the frame and allow the leader to walk into his partner)
    • The elbow should not travel in front of your chest. (This is the essence of how we lead turns and twists. Without that rule we would just be waving our arms around with no impact on the body).
    • The arm is free to travel up or down. (This allows us to lead turns / returns and move our hand freely from waste height to shoulder height or above the head).
    • The arms should not be fully extended (locked elbows) but maintain tone and elasticity to allow for slight compensation when a sudden change of direction or speed occurs.
    • The connected shoulder should be engaged with your torso so that lead transmission is as close to instantaneous as possible.

    The rules above refer to Horizontal Inner Connection which is what most people refer to when discussing Frame.

    Vertical Inner Connection is sadly under-rated and refers to consistent movement between shoulders, hips and feet.
    Basic rule is that each shoulder should remain above its respective hip and the foot on which you are weighted (balanced). This is important when stepping back, walking, turning, spinning or twisting. Identifying when the weight is fully transferred to one foot or the other should be obvious by the vertical axis created by Foot - Hip - Shoulder.

    The 2 types of Inner Connection (Horizontal & Vertical) are crucial to balance, lead, follow and feel; so are desirable for both Leaders and Followers.
    Exceptions to this are:
    • Followers need to protect themselves from rough leads. If a lead is too strong or changes directions too fast, the Followers should break the connection and frame to avoid injury.
    • Advanced dancers who understand connection and Lead & Follow properly can easily break the above rules and deliberately dissociate parts of their body for interesting variations and style fioritures.

    Finally, good leads who want to get better should have a good Inner Connection so they can be receptive to subtle leads and inflexions from their partner. The better the Connection (Inner & Outer) the more communication can pass between both dancers and as the lead / follow becomes a two-way process, the results can become spectacular, both in feel and appearance.
    Franck.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Wow, great post Frzanck

    Very interested in the concept of Vertical Inner Connection as I think that's much weaker in my dancing than the Horizontal Inner Connection.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But one fairly classic way of leading a slotted travelling return is 'step back to start the follow travelling down the slot, raise the arm and step out of the slot, follower natural turns under the arm as you step back into the slot'. And so the actual *turn* is somewhat arm-lead.

    For a much more clear cut example, consider a sequence of travelling illusion spins. I'd consider that basically 100% arm lead.
    This all hinges on what you call Leading.
    In the Travelling return above, you are Leading the 'travelling bit' by stepping back (which is a body lead) and then raising your hand to lead the turn, which you describe as Arm lead. When your partner walks past you you are also angling your body towards her, effectively body leading a rotation. The raising of the arm is only confirmation of the lead by allowing her frame to follow your own rotation under her arm (as opposed to blocking it if the hand remained low). Once the Travel Lead and the Rotate Lead are given, the followers will continue travelling until stopped or led in a different direction - A dancer's version of the principle of Inertia.

    Similarly in the Illusion Turns, The original turn will (should) be body led, and once the lady is already turning, it takes very little extra lead to keep her turning. The pulsing I use would be generated from a body lead and transmitted via the hands.

    In my understanding of Leading, we only need to lead acceleration (or slow down), this includes changes of direction. Once we have given momentum, or change of direction, the followers will continue in that direction and at that speed until slowed down again or re-directed. Connection is always there however, and I can't think of any move where the Inner connection principles I quoted above would have to be broken during the lead. This doesn't mean that I maintain full Inner Connection at all time, occasionally I might break my frame, even during simple moves, but only briefly and whilst the Follower is continuing on a momentum path, is disconnected from me, or is static and not being led.
    Franck.

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  13. #53
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    This all hinges on what you call Leading.
    In the Travelling return above, you are Leading the 'travelling bit' by stepping back (which is a body lead) and then raising your hand to lead the turn, which you describe as Arm lead. When your partner walks past you you are also angling your body towards her, effectively body leading a rotation. The raising of the arm is only confirmation of the lead by allowing her frame to follow your own rotation under her arm (as opposed to blocking it if the hand remained low). Once the Travel Lead and the Rotate Lead are given, the followers will continue travelling until stopped or led in a different direction - A dancer's version of the principle of Inertia.
    I wouldn't really have chosen a travelling return as an example myself for the reasons you describe; in practice most people do body lead it (via flashlighting) to a fair extent, which is why I said it was only somewhat arm-lead.

    Similarly in the Illusion Turns, The original turn will (should) be body led, and once the lady is already turning, it takes very little extra lead to keep her turning. The pulsing I use would be generated from a body lead and transmitted via the hands.
    If we're in the situation where not much lead is required, then I take your point (althogh to my mind in this case the lead is more providing guidance than an actual lead). I was thinking more of the case where there's signfiicant lead (either double speed turns or simply where you've 'extended' the spin to the point where the follow would go off balance without help). I feel that in that case, it actually works best if I have a fair degree of isolation between the arms and the body. (There's frame/inner connection, and I know what you mean by pulsing here, but the body is so disassociated from the arm movement that I'm really not happy calling it a body lead).

    For another way of looking at things, IIRC, DavidB has said one of the advantages of body leads is that they stop the man leading movements that are blatantly impossible for the follow. In simple terms, I can very easily move my hand much faster than the follow can move her body. But if my hand is moving in sync with my body, I'm inherently limited to leads that only involve movements at 'body' speed. To me, this is a useful distinction to make, and it seems to me that your definition of body lead loses that distinction.

    Edit: To be clear - I'm not so much saying you're wrong as saying that you're not using the terms in the way I want to use them. I always find it interesting in these discussions how people can go on and on about how superior body-leads are, or how important frame is, and it turns out that no-one in the discussion is actually using the terms in the same way!
    Last edited by David Franklin; 8th-July-2010 at 12:38 PM.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Wow, great post Frzanck

    Very interested in the concept of Vertical Inner Connection as I think that's much weaker in my dancing than the Horizontal Inner Connection.
    Thanks.

    I don't think you're alone with the issue of Vertical Inner Connection.
    A common issue for Followers will be when the men are leading twists and the follower with good Horizontal Connection (Frame) will move their arm and torso, following the lead, but somehow, their feet will move independently from the rest of their body.
    For Leaders, the problem will be most visible in "Mambo steps" (aka Manhattans) or the Penguin Walk. Where the feet are moving ahead or behind the body momentum.

    This principle is useful in most moves and can improve the look and feel of all dancing, but the examples above are a couple of glaring ones.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    If we're in the situation where not much lead is required, then I take your point (althogh to my mind in this case the lead is more providing guidance than an actual lead). I was thinking more of the case where there's signfiicant lead (either double speed turns or simply where you've 'extended' the spin to the point where the follow would go off balance without help). I feel that in that case, it actually works best if I have a fair degree of isolation between the arms and the body. (There's frame/inner connection, and I know what you mean by pulsing here, but the body is so disassociated from the arm movement that I'm really not happy calling it a body lead).
    I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say the body is so dissociated from the arm movement or to what degree exactly.
    The hand movement during the ladies turn (slow or fast) is only physically following the Follower's own rotation, as anything else would effectively provide a brake or new lead. By the time the hand moves around with the Follower's hand in a halo pattern, the lead has already been given and indeed you wouldn't expect the man's body to either spin or wobble in sync with his partners. I referred to this fact when I said that we didn't have to be fully engaged in Inner connection at all times, only when Leading.

    A faster (double speed turn) or an extended turn will be initially body led with a more intense connection (as preparation so that the Follower's connection is ready to take a stronger acceleration) and an amplified body lead. You do not need to increase the strength in the lead too much as Followers should be able to enhance the lead and add to the power of it based on their reading of the Lead / Connection and Context.
    Any extended turn requiring further power would be added (more as confirmation than actual engine) by the pulsing I mentioned above, which has to happen within the right timing so has to perpetuate the rotation without affecting the Follower's balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    For another way of looking at things, IIRC, DavidB has said one of the advantages of body leads is that they stop the man leading movements that are blatantly impossible for the follow. In simple terms, I can very easily move my hand much faster than the follow can move her body. But if my hand is moving in sync with my body, I'm inherently limited to leads that only involve movements at 'body' speed. To me, this is a useful distinction to make, and it seems to me that your definition of body lead loses that distinction.
    I am in total agreement with DavidB's definition regarding the body leads as a good way to put a natural speed limit on Leads and keep movement within physically followable realms. In practise, the followers can and will amplify the original lead and travel faster. I wouldn't want to lose that aspect, but I don't see how it relates to the rest of your post and where my definition breaks that rule. Providing acceleration or a change of direction by maintaining Inner connection is exactly using body leads and connection to ensure that natural speed limits are not broken.
    Franck.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    You said: "The pulsing I use would be generated from a body lead and transmitted via the hands."

    But there's no real upper limit on how fast an illusion spin I can (try to!) lead like that, and (as you say), there's no requirement that my body is mirroring the lead. Particularly if things go wrong (to be clear, because I think we're talking slightly different things, I'm talking about the scenario where I'm leading something like ten fast continual turns), it's very easy for me to lead stuff physically incompatible with what the the follower can do in this situation.

    So I don't want to call that a body lead.

    I like to think of body leads as leads where the motion of the body is what generates the lead, with the arms (or other contact points) essentially being used simply to provide connection between bodies.
    That means I consider a lot of MJ to be at least somewhat arm lead. But I don't have a problem with arm-leading as long as it's done well (which has a lot to do with inner/outer connection).
    Last edited by David Franklin; 8th-July-2010 at 01:19 PM.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post

    But there's no real upper limit on how fast an illusion spin I can (try to!) lead like that, and (as you say), there's no requirement that my body is mirroring the lead. Particularly if things go wrong (to be clear, because I think we're talking slightly different things, I'm talking about the scenario where I'm leading something like ten fast continual turns), it's very easy for me to lead stuff physically incompatible with what the the follower can do in this situation.
    I really think this depends on the ability of your follower!!!!!!

    After all, the follower turns themselves initially. As I understand it, the "pulsing" referred to gives the follower extra energy to continue turning, but the hands still remain above their head in order to assist balance. Otherwise you'll end up with a god awful stirring motion.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    After all, the follower turns themselves initially. As I understand it, the "pulsing" referred to gives the follower extra energy to continue turning, but the hands still remain above their head in order to assist balance. Otherwise you'll end up with a god awful stirring motion.
    Sure the hands are above the head, and the 'halo' I draw is actually more like the 'edge of a skull cap' in size. Even so, it's very easy to pull the follow off balance if you put too much power in your lead.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    You said: "The pulsing I use would be generated from a body lead and transmitted via the hands."

    But there's no real upper limit on how fast an illusion spin I can (try to!) lead like that, and (as you say), there's no requirement that my body is mirroring the lead. Particularly if things go wrong (to be clear, because I think we're talking slightly different things, I'm talking about the scenario where I'm leading something like ten fast continual turns), it's very easy for me to lead stuff physically incompatible with what the the follower can do in this situation.

    So I don't want to call that a body lead.

    I like to think of body leads as leads where the motion of the body is what generates the lead, with the arms (or other contact points) essentially being used simply to provide connection between bodies.
    That means I consider a lot of MJ to be at least somewhat arm lead. But I don't have a problem with arm-leading as long as it's done well (which has a lot to do with inner/outer connection).
    Well going by my earlier definition of a Lead, which was to provide acceleration (or change of direction) what you describe is simply maintaining momentum, not changing direction or providing acceleration. In that case, the hands will move with the followers in the best possible way so that we don't compromise their balance, and the occasional (and timely) pulse of energy will only serve to compensate for energy lost otherwise and to confirm intention (as many followers would start doubting their own follow after 2 or 3 turns.

    As Alinp says thought, the above only applies to 2 good dancers with good connection (both inner and outer) and no issues with balance.

    As far as the body providing the lead and the arms the connection, I agree with you, this is too simplistic and ultimately inacurrate.
    My contention is that it is better to understand body leads and the implied speed limits etc. to be able to lead properly. Once you have a feel for the natural speed and momentum of dance, most things can be arm led, in the same way you cannot easily tell the difference between acceleration and gravity without points of reference, a follower with her eyes shut might not be able to tell between a body lead and a good arm lead.
    I find however that body leads offer more subtle variations and provide more degrees of intensity (or more control) than pure arm leads.
    Modern Jive works well with arm leads, and works better with body leads. This is one of the reasons it is much easier to learn than other (more reliant on body leads) dances. Mistakes and lack of balance are easier to ignore or compensate for when we are less connected. This doesn't only apply to body leads but also to 'body follows'.
    Franck.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Do Leaders (or indeed Followers) break the Frame (or Inner Connection) when dancing? Yes, definitely, and indeed they should. Isolation and disconnection give the dance the flexibility and variety we see on dance floors and opens up the possibility of Style variations otherwise impossible.

    The crucial thing is that the Frame / Inner connection should not be broken at the time of Lead.
    Out of curiosity, do you think there are moves (or movements) that require you to break frame, as opposed to intentionally breaking frame to add variation?
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Vertical Inner Connection is sadly under-rated and refers to consistent movement between shoulders, hips and feet.
    Basic rule is that each shoulder should remain above its respective hip and the foot on which you are weighted (balanced). This is important when stepping back, walking, turning, spinning or twisting. Identifying when the weight is fully transferred to one foot or the other should be obvious by the vertical axis created by Foot - Hip - Shoulder.
    One of my ballroom teachers used to say, "always keep your feet under your weight". That was his way of telling us the same thing. It's a lesson that's always stuck with me.

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