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Thread: Do leaders need frame and balance

  1. #21
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Why say it at all??? The move can be led perfectly well without any verbalisation assuming all the previous points about frame are followed!!
    That's the point I thought I was making. I must have hidden my meaning even better than Amir's fabulous post.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In the catapult I think that it's the movement of the right arm to "turn the lady under and send her back" that is all arm lead and no body lead that breaks the leaders frame. There is no direct relationship between the leaders body and their hand - they could lead this move if they keep their body still and they could lead it if they move their body. The follower maintains the frame throughout the move.
    A lot of people teach the catapult that way. I think it shows a mis-understanding of body leading and frame.

    In the catapult, the follow is stepping past the man and turning - exactly the same as a right to right travelling return. The only difference is that the lead doesn't turn himself. So, you lead the follow towards you by moving your weight back, then give her space and raise your arm as she passes; if necessary, step forward to help the follow complete the pass. Through the connection, the follow's turn is natural and doesn't require any special lead.

    That's entirely body led. This is such a basic principle of body leading that to skip it for one move creates an inconsistency in the dancing, which makes it more complicated. If it's not body led and involves the frame breaking, then should all moves requiring the same movement - such as the right to right travelling return - not be body led? And if a right to right travelling return isn't body led, then why is a left to right travelling return? What's the difference? Or do all these moves require you to break your frame?

    Alternatively, perhaps the frame is important enough and easy enough that it can be maintained through all moves. The reason I like this approach is the catapult stops being a move and becomes a variation that you can throw in any time you have a right to right hold and are leading a right side pass. It moves the dance from set moves to technique and movement that helps people dance.

    And, to get back on topic, all of this is built on a good frame!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    So, you lead the follow towards you by moving your weight back, then give her space and raise your arm as she passes;
    Absolutely right. The follower's travel is initiated via a body lead where the frame is maintained by both the lead and the follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    In the catapult, the follow is stepping past the man and turning - exactly the same as a right to right travelling return. The only difference is that the lead doesn't turn himself.
    I think the point where the lead doesn't turn himself is where the frame breaks. The lead would need to turn to maintain their frame. There is no longer any relationship between movement of the body and movement of the hand therefore there is no frame for the lead at this point.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think the point where the lead doesn't turn himself is where the frame breaks. The lead would need to turn to maintain their frame. There is no longer any relationship between movement of the body and movement of the hand therefore there is no frame for the lead at this point.
    So, by that definition, any move that has the hands moving independently of the body breaks the frame? Really?

    Unfortunately, most MJ moves involve moving the hand separately from the body. A first move, for example, my left hand starts in front of me then moves across my body to retain the connection (exactly the same motion as switching from closed to open ballroom). In a sway my right hand starts in front of me the is extended out to the side. Pretzel? Yoyo? Basket? Twizzle? Comb? Do all these moves break frame? All involve the hand moving unrelated to the body - for both lead and follow (which makes your earlier claim the only leads break frame somewhat inconsistent with your definition of how the lead breaks their frame).

    I could equally spin off a long list of moves from latin and ballroom where you do precisely that - yet which no-one who understands ballroom would claim they break frame.

    This might explain why some people think the lead doesn't have a frame in MJ - but that thought doesn't make it true.

    The alternative is for the lead to move their hands around without breaking their frame - which is precisely what I do in a catapult.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    So, by that definition, any move that has the hands moving independently of the body breaks the frame? Really?

    -snip-

    This might explain why some people think the lead doesn't have a frame in MJ - but that thought doesn't make it true.

    The alternative is for the lead to move their hands around without breaking their frame - which is precisely what I do in a catapult.
    As I said before it all depends on what you describe as a dance frame. For you to lead using your frame there needs to be some relationship between movement of your body/centre and the lead the follower receives. When you are in the open hold that movement of the body/centre is usually transmitted via the hands following the movement of the centre to a greater or lesser extent or even exaggerating the movement of the body/centre. If there is no relationship between the movement of your body/centre and the movement of your hands I can see no argument that you have used your frame to lead the dance.

    I know I'm repeating myself, but that was on a different page

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think it depends on your definition of "frame". My own thoughts on frame for the leader are that the frame transmits body movements of the lead to the follower's frame through the hands of the leader. The frame of the leader is maintained all the time there is a relationship between the hands/arms and the body. In the closed hold the relationship of the hands/arms and the body is fairly fixed in place. In the open hold the relationship between hands/body is less fixed. The frame stretches and contracts as the hands move away from and towards the body. When the hands and body are moving in different directions it is very difficult to say that you have any kind of frame - especially when you compare this situation to the frame in the closed hold.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Unfortunately, most MJ moves involve moving the hand separately from the body
    Many MJ moves are taught moving the hand separately from the body. Some of them are taught that way because that's the way the move works. Other moves would be better taught using frame and body-leads. However, MJ is a folk dance and is about what people do. If a lot of people are doing it a particular way that's the way it can be done. You can present your own, better way, but you must be careful not to say that arm leads with no frame are 'rubbish' or 'bad dancing' - even if, in some cases, they are

    For some moves the movement of the hand separately from the body adds to the lead but are simply stretching or compressing the frame but not breaking it.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    So, by that definition, any move that has the hands moving independently of the body breaks the frame? Really?
    I think it would be helpful for you to post your definition of frame...

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    So, by that definition, any move that has the hands moving independently of the body breaks the frame? Really?
    I don't think that's what I said. I think the hands don't have to be fixed like a statue for a frame to be maintained. The hands can move relative to the body and a frame is still maintained. Although it might be stretched or compressed.

    This is arguing for the particular to the general. The particular bit were I said I think the frame is broken was quite specific to one part of the catapult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    When the hands and body are moving in different directions it is very difficult to say that you have any kind of frame - especially when you compare this situation to the frame in the closed hold.

    In the catapult I think that it's the movement of the right arm to "turn the lady under and send her back" that is all arm lead and no body lead that breaks the leaders frame. There is no direct relationship between the leaders body and their hand - they could lead this move if they keep their body still and they could lead it if they move their body.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    So, from the link, what is a "light card chair"?

    Quote:

    "I found that I achieved a better sense of dance frame by practicing while holding a light card chair".
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I assume it's what we'd call a fold-up chair or deckchair.
    Ok - so let me get this right..........I pick up a deckchair - by it's frame? And the frame of the deckchair then helps me to develop my own frame? Has anyone tried this? The last time I saw a deckchair was down in Brighton. Is there a correlation between coastal dancers and the quality of the frames there?

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Has anyone tried this? The last time I saw a deckchair was down in Brighton. Is there a correlation between coastal dancers and the quality of the frames there?
    Down here at the seaside some of us have left our frames out in the weather for too long. Our frames have warped a bit and our seats have sagged. Some of our frames have floated out to sea, never to be seen again.

  10. #30
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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Down here at the seaside some of us have left our frames out in the weather for too long. Our frames have warped a bit and our seats have sagged. Some of our frames have floated out to sea, never to be seen again.
    thought you were talking about my zimmer


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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    thought you were talking about my zimmer
    I certainly wasn't talking about your seat. That is still showing no signs of sagging.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    The move can be led perfectly well without any verbalisation assuming all the previous points about frame are followed!!
    Correct!

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I certainly wasn't talking about your seat. That is still showing no signs of sagging.
    Attached Images Attached Images


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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I think it would be helpful for you to post your definition of frame...
    The frame is the core of your body. The arms are extensions of the frame, but they are not static extensions - that is the arms can and do move as part of the frame. Whenever you are actively leading (or being led), as opposed to maintaining connection, the hands should move with the body. When you are maintaining connection, then you can move your hands. You know when you are actively leading or being led when you have tension or compression between yourself and your partner.

    The alternative - that the frame breaks when "[t]here is no longer any relationship between movement of the body and movement of the hand" leads to a whole bunch of arbitrary distinctions, as I've pointed out. If we return to the original example, when I do a travelling return, I often open out to my left - basically a 90 degree turn. I know a few follows who do exactly the same thing. Neither of us breaks our frame in the process of doing that. Yet, according to some people, turning another 90 degrees suddenly breaks the frame. That, to me, is inconsistent. For a more advanced example, I do a move where I led the follow in travelling turns, while I use Columbian footwork. I do this without breaking my frame, although my hands and body are doing quite different things. This particular move quite common in Samba and Pasa Doble - both dances that put far more emphasis on basic technique than modern jive.

    And, one more question for Andy: how do you do a sway without moving your hand independently of your body? Given your hand starts in front of you and ends out to your side, I am very curious how you would do this. If you can't do it, then how is this movement different from the movement required in a catapult?

    If I move my arms independently when I'm in tension or compression, then this is arm leading.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    And, one more question for Andy: how do you do a sway without moving your hand independently of your body? Given your hand starts in front of you and ends out to your side, I am very curious how you would do this. If you can't do it, then how is this movement different from the movement required in a catapult?
    The difference is that your hand is not disappearing behind your back and the lady has not turned under your arm. In the sway you are stretching your frame to the right to lead the move but your body/centre is not in opposition to the movement of your hand. In the catapult the hand moves completely independently of the centre and the weight of the lead is in opposition to the weight of follow. In fact, they're different moves which start the same but diverge very soon after the follow is led forwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    If I move my arms independently when I'm in tension or compression, then this is arm leading.
    Are you saying that there is no frame when you're arm leading?

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The frame is the core of your body.
    Okay so far.
    The arms are extensions of the frame, but they are not static extensions - that is the arms can and do move as part of the frame.
    But not any more. If the arms are part of the frame, how can the frame be the core of your body?

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    "A good way to lead it is to use ‘frame’. Just shout 'frame' a few counts before trying to lead the move". ~ Amir

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds that followers need a 'mental prep' in order to pick up this lead, when switching straight from open hold in to close hold at very short notice.

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    "A good way to lead it is to use ‘frame’. Just shout 'frame' a few counts before trying to lead the move". ~ Amir

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds that followers need a 'mental prep' in order to pick up this lead, when switching straight from open hold in to close hold at very short notice.
    Please tell me this was a joke.....

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Okay so far.
    But not any more. If the arms are part of the frame, how can the frame be the core of your body?
    I’m not certain I follow exactly what Geoff is trying to say myself, but I think he’s getting at something like this.

    Leads are generally much clearer, obvious and more comfortable when they’re body lead rather than exclusively arm lead.
    To be able to body lead you need to move your core/torso pretty much as a single unit*.
    Your arms need to be connected to that core in a meaningful way so your partner can feel that movement.

    I think the point he’s trying to make about the hands is that it isn’t so important that they stay in one place relative to the body, much like the arms on a forklift do. What is important is that they have enough tone in them that they can transmit the movement of the body when needed to lead.

    From what I gather (and am quite prepared to be corrected on), Geoff considers this flexibility an element of the “frame” while Andy more-or-less says the same thing but doesn’t think it applies when the leads arms are stretched directly behind him in the catapult.

    I’m confused as to whether the two are debating something significant or just a point of semantics.

    *It’s a bit more complicated than that if you look at it really closely IMO, but I think it’s a good enough description for Government work.
    **Within reason anyway. Some positions just don’t lend themselves to good leading

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    Re: Do leaders need frame and balance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Please tell me this was a joke.....
    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    "A good way to lead it is to use ‘frame’. Just shout 'frame' a few counts before trying to lead the move". ~ Amir
    ^ That WAS a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds that followers need a 'mental prep' in order to pick up this lead, when switching straight from open hold in to close hold at very short notice.
    ^That WASN'T a joke.



    HTH.

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