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Thread: WCS - a newbie's perspective

  1. #121
    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    And finally a review of the event itself.

    ..I was disappointed not to place (and yes I know it's because my dancing looks crap!
    Surely looking crap is part & parcel of being a wcs newbie

  2. #122
    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    I'm writing this on my mobile on the train back from swingmasters and am very tired so please excuse any errors. I had a fabulous time at swingmasters. I was too tired to do any of the classes but enjoyed all those i watched. I basically just wanted to say that i think the comment on brennar and torri unfair. I first saw them at the swingvitational last year and i found them to be professional, warm, friendly, funny and engaging. They imparted a hell of a lot of valuable information to the class and were constantly watching and adapting as required. Both at swingv and at swingmasters i found brennar to be very charming and approachable and he gives regular punters amazing dances; he also INCREDIBLE watch social dancing with the other pros!
    Yes he and torri are young but i rate them as highly as i do kyle and sarah, in fact i booked swingmasters BECAUSE brennar and torri were returning to the uk.

  3. #123
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I think our disagreement stems from the phrase 'bolted on' To me it's faintly derogatory as if the arrangements for the Swing dancers were an afterthought when clearly they were not. Yes, there are efficiencies of scale and the line weekend is a huge event so it makes sense to partner up for it but the Swing aspects of the weekend had just as much planning and attention as at any weekend event I have been to.
    I will agree on this, its your and mine intepretation of the phrase bolted on. At no point in my review did I suggest things weren't up to scratch. I merely pointed out who was in the majority, who the stalls were there for and who had the main rooms. I thanked the organisers, had a couple of nice chats to them and posted positive feedback to them on the website. I merely point out that it is much the same as say Southport in October, which is usually Tango as a bolt on. Does that explain how it is in my head. i.e. at southport, there are milongas and lessons but its primarily a jive event.

  4. #124
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Wow, what excellent insight you must have to know exactly why some people are behaving as you perceive them to be behaving.
    Who knows how minds work, I have no idea how yours does or why you have a mask on in your profile pic. Well I do having had training in psychology, body language, subterfuge, deception detection and a number of other areas. But you're right this is dance, not the real world. Shouldn't use those skills I have or intellect to analyse a problem and suggest a solution. It might get implemented and resolve things.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Given your reverence towards your mentor Rocky
    Wow, I have a mentor, I must let him know so he realises this as well. Here's me thinking he's a mate from dancing, but a mentor. I'll let him know when I see him next

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    If you are being refused 4 times in an evening then no doubt it is not a pleasant experience but it is perhaps also the cue for a little introspection...The friendly face thing cuts both ways too. You, if I recall previous posts correctly, go to Twickenham and the workshops, yes? Why did you not join the loose gathering of those people in the seating area just inside and to the left of the door? Smile and say hi to people and suddenly you too can be part of the clique
    If I joined the group to the left of the door at twickers I would be sitting on Cat's lap. I like her, she's a nice person. But she probably doesn't want that.

    And yes, you're completely right, I must have been glowering rather than my usual happy self to have made 4 people look me up and down and tell me no. So must have Linda (not minnie). What bastards we are. In fact I often get people come up to me and say Phil, I hate dancing with you because you never smile or look at me, or when you ask you make me feel useless. So Robd you're right, I need to look at myself and figure out why this is. Because its obviously me thats at fault here. I was so much at fault, there was no need for the people being asked to give me an explanation or excuse, just look at me and tell me no. Because its me and my high toting ideals of dancing with anyone who asks and being BRAVE enough to get off my arse and ask someone instead of just sitting there that's the real problem. I think you made your point Robd I know exactly why the WCS community makes some people pay to come on a weekender and then go off to a jive event rather than enjoy themselves at the WCS night they've already paid for. Its all us.

    Excuse the sarcasm, but sometimes you have to respond in kind. I'm just here to post my thoughts. If it stops and makes people think, then great, if not then shout at me, fine, but I will shout back. Hopefully something will change. I don't have any axe to grind, having been to and continue to go to Marlow, London, Twickers to WCS when I can.

  5. #125
    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post


    If I joined the group to the left of the door at twickers I would be sitting on Cat's lap. I like her, she's a nice person. But she probably doesn't want that.
    Erm, I think you misunderstood Rob - he meant the group of familiar faces sat on the bank of chairs to the left of the door at Swingmasters.

  6. #126
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    Its all us.
    So, I wonder, is Lily Allen the patron saint of UK WCS?


  7. #127
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Well, guess what ? I was at Manchester on Saturday too, just for the day, so here's my views!
    It was definitely 70% linedance 30% WCS but I'd no problem with that, was just happy to get the excellent classes and the evening cabaret was without doubt spectacular.
    I really enjoyed the classes, never having experienced any of the teachers before, but would just like to say that Brennar & Tori could use a little help in managing the class as the way Tori told the class to keep quiet was rather rude. It didn't help that no-one had a hands-free radio mike (tip for next time maybe?).
    So, classes were great, enjoyed the competition dancing, had a nice dinner with friends, loved the cabaret, wished I hadn't bothered staying for the social dancing as no-one asked me to dance at all. I was in group of 6 (comprising me- improved beginner, my friend- intermediate level & 3 raw beginners who've had about 5 lessons) and none of us got asked to dance ! I don't mind asking guys but it's nice to asked sometimes too!

  8. #128
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    I had a great weekend, I competed but as my triple steps are almost non existant I really have no chance. I was lucky enough to dance with lovely ladies from the US, Canada, Brazil, Sweden, Scotland, France and lastly Finland (mmmmmm).
    I try to dance with as many ladies that I don't know as your never know what gems you will meet.

    I thought the competitions were all pushed along in a timely manner without any real delays.

    It was interesting to hear a real blues set, I know it wasn't to every ones taste, probably because it is really so much harder to dance to IMHO.

    All in all a great weekend. I know Phil wasn't happy about Friday, hopefully the more Phil dances, the more people he gets to know the less chances he will of getting refusals.

  9. #129
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    Who knows how minds work, I have no idea ... why you have a mask on in your profile pic. Well I do having had training in psychology, body language, subterfuge, deception detection and a number of other areas.
    Wow,

    I suspect among your list of carefully deduced reasons is not the fact that the forum only allows those with existing Silver membership to select a new custom avatar whilst those with a lapsed Silver membership can retain a custom avatar but not replace it?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    So Robd you're right. I need to look at myself and figure out why this is. Because its obviously me thats at fault here. I was so much at fault, there was no need for the people being asked to give me an explanation or excuse, just look at me and tell me no.
    Erm , it's robd but that's not the point. The point is that if I had experienced 4 refusals as a leader at an event with a gender skew like Swingmasters I'd certainly wonder what it was about me that was making people say no. You seem to believe it's always their issue not yours. Why did I experience no refusals this weekend and you experience 4?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    I don't have any axe to grind.
    You sound a lot like Andy McGregor with that statement and appear about as convincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    Too defeatist Robd .......I am sure I can get to a standard where people want to dance with me
    I trust you're enjoying the journey?

  10. #130
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    I had a really good weekend at Manchester and I'll try to make it back next year. I like having the line dancers around - bolted on/not bolted on ... doesn't matter to me.

    I can take or leave competitions so was glad they didn't take up too much time and were done during the day.

    I enjoyed the music apart from the all-blues set on Friday - 90 minutes non-stop of any one style is a brave idea, particularly for the first big slot of a weekender. There were a few people "not feeling it", which may have something to do with rtwwpad and the follower he was talking about getting refused dances.

    I don't think refusing dances is any more part of the culture in WCS than it is in modern jive. One reason I had a good time in Manchester is I made a conscious decision to ask people to dance who are better than me. I know that in an ideal world they'd probably prefer to be dancing with Jordan Frisbee but equally that they're almost certainly going to say yes and that it's a good way to learn and get some really nice dances. Equally I will almost never refuse a dance - i might say "next one" if i hate the song and i think most of the West Coast crowd work in the same way.

  11. #131
    Registered User Northants Girly's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post

    And yes, you're completely right, I must have been glowering rather than my usual happy self to have made 4 people look me up and down and tell me no. So must have Linda (not minnie). What bastards we are.
    Who are you referring to here as I don't recall having a conversation with you (or anyone else) about being turned down for dances over the weekend . .

  12. #132
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Lets try to keep this on topic!

    This is about those new to WCS's perspective on the dance. These experiences should be treated as valid.

    All you more experienced WCS dancers posting here that it is not like that basically have your collective heads up your arse! ( I am sure I will receive plenty of neg rep but hey ho!) I see close to 100 people every week at my WCS classes around the south of England, sadly I hear a lot of the same complaints.

    Like it or not, relatively speaking this dance suffers from a very high perception of elitism, where does come from?..... Go figure! As a result(sadly) there are now a number of regular class options that actively challenge this perception available to those wanting to learn WCS, especially in the south of the country.

  13. #133
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Lets try to keep this on topic!

    This is about those new to WCS's perspective on the dance. These experiences should be treated as valid.

    All you more experienced WCS dancers posting here that it is not like that basically have your collective heads up your arse! ( I am sure I will receive plenty of neg rep but hey ho!) I see close to 100 people every week at my WCS classes around the south of England, sadly I hear a lot of the same complaints.

    Like it or not, relatively speaking this dance suffers from a very high perception of elitism, where does come from?..... Go figure! As a result(sadly) there are now a number of regular class options that actively challenge this perception available to those wanting to learn WCS, especially in the south of the country.
    Mikey
    When I have made comments on this thread they are from my experiences. I am happy to dance with any one and everyone. Having spoken to different people one of the biggest problems is their own perception of a) How good everyone else, b) How bad they feel they are.

    What happens is then they just sit down looking scared, more experienced dancers can take that look as please don't ask me your too good or I am not good enough.

    Sometimes I think new dancers need to take the bull by the horn and get up and ask others for a dance. That way they will get to know other more experienced dancers.

    Lastly the experienced dancers probably need to look past that look of dread and get the inexperienced dancers up and dancing.

    I suppose most people will think of elitism within WCS and think of Twickenham. Other dancers need to remember this is the longest running class and there is a large group that has been going for at least 3 years who are friends. Seeing a large group and putting them on a pedastal makes it even more daunting for dancers who are very good MJivers in their own rights to put aside their own doubts and allow themselves to become beginners again. If you can allow yourself to become a beginner again and not feel that your nose has been put out of joint, this is a great dance to learn

  14. #134
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Like it or not, relatively speaking this dance suffers from a very high perception of elitism, where does come from?..... Go figure! As a result(sadly) there are now a number of regular class options that actively challenge this perception available to those wanting to learn WCS, especially in the south of the country.
    Sadly? It's a good thing if that perception is being challenged, surely?

  15. #135
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Sadly? It's a good thing if that perception is being challenged, surely?
    Is it being challenged or is it a case that the classes are generally being used by mostly beginners. If most or all the class are beginners there is no real reason why dancers will have any insecurity complex's and it will take time for dancers to show their ability and progress quicker or slower than others.

  16. #136
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Like it or not, relatively speaking this dance suffers from a very high perception of elitism, where does come from?.....
    Comments like 'I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ.' probably don't help, do they?

  17. #137
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    'one of the biggest problems is their own perception of a) How good everyone else, b) How bad they feel they are.

    What happens is then they just sit down looking scared, more experienced dancers can take that look as please don't ask me your too good or I am not good enough'

    Hmm - having first posted here with my own feelings/experience that WCS is unfriendly/elitist/cliquey, I am giving some consideration to Gerry's comments. Saturday at Manchester was the first major WCS event I've attended and it was very disappointing not to be asked to dance at all by anyone (apart from a friend who was sitting with us) during the evening social. But I probably was sitting there thinking everyone was too good to dance with me/wouldn't want to dance with me, so I didn't feel I could ask anyone. However I had thoroughly enjoyed the classes, hadn't felt like a duffer and had danced with some of the guys at the social during the classes. Perhaps I need to change my own perspective of myself in WCS?

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    (Typing this my toes due to having my head stuck up my bum :-))

    I agree with Gerry's post no 133. If people are being refused dances then it's entirely the fault of the WCS community but if people are sitting on the sidelines worrying about not being good enough and not asking for dances then i'm afraid they're part of the problem too.

    I've also just seen Glads' new post and, yes, i hope you'll be pleasantly surprised if you're a bit more proactive. Also, if i see a big group of followers I don't know sitting together I'm less likely to ask any of them than if there's just one or two.

    And Mikey, you learned at Twickenham to begin with, didn't you? Did you often get refused dances there?

  19. #139
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post

    Just because mikeyr doesn't ACTIVELY recruit MJ'er (which was probably a response to an acusation that he tries to steal punters from people's MJ venues), doesn't mean he doesn't welcome them...

    On the contrary, mikeyr has, & is doing a lot for wcs in this country, and is a great social dancer, especially when beginners are concerned (not just at his own venues either)

    Come on, own up, I bet you used your entire lunchbreak searching for a bit of mud to throw at mikeyr didnt you?

    Couldn't you find anything a little more juicy in order to stir up a nice tit-for-tat, petty argument that this forum seems to be so well known for?

  20. #140
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    Come on, own up, I bet you used your entire lunchbreak searching for a bit of mud to throw at mikeyr didnt you?
    Not at all. I have been on the forum for a few years now and have a pretty good memory for what people have written in the past (especially when it causes a bit of a stir as mikeyr's comment did when it was originally posted and even more so when people perform a complete about turn in their publicly stated position ) and it only took a single search (even using the DREADFUL vbulletin search function) to find.

    The reason I dug it up is simply that I think that Mike is taking the p1ss in his last post on this thread by accusing others of having their head up their arse given some of his own past words and actions.

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