WCS - a newbie's perspective

[NZ Monkey]

I've also seen *many* WCS explanations on here that leave me mystified - where I've felt the point of the post was "let me show how clever I am" rather than to actually inform. Now this might well be my own shortcomings - my WCS is very much at the beginner level. But I've had a fair amount of postiive feedback for my own "try to explain WCS" posts on here from people who are good, so I'm not convinced it's all my fault.

It's for a good reason you get that feedback. Clear explanations of dance concepts are very difficult to put down in writing, and the fact that you manage accurate explanations from an "outsiders" perspective is particularly impressive.

In many ways, it seems a lot of criticism might be averted by a statement along the lines of "Look, Twickenham on a Wednesday has been going a couple of years, it's basically the only place where WCSers can find lots of experienced partners to dance with, and as such there's not a lot of coddling of beginners".

And there, I think, is the elephant in the corner.

As an aside though, I only see this issue through the forum given that I’m so far removed from the social scene myself. My impression is that most of WCSers who post in “defense” of WCS are very caring and genuine people who want people to enjoy the dance. I certainly can’t fault the likes of Lory and Gerry, who were both very encouraging of me for example.

I’m left with the impression that the majority of the “debate” is driven by a few with an axe to grind against WCS or WCSer’s. The newbies who say things like “WCS venues are so unfriendly” are just being honest about what they see. I accept that there may be issues with the culture that make WCS less-than-ideal for beginners at the moment, but I have a strong feeling that the reasons these discussions last as long as they do are a bit deeper than that. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but a lot of the more vigorous debate here feels to me like it’s more personally motivated than perhaps it should be.

[Gerry]

Perhaps excluding semi-jive such as Utopia, I think a big advantage of modern jive is to able to turn up on your own, somewhere you've never been before and be reasonably confident of having a good time.

Have you ever been to Utopia???????????

I think if you did you would see a large range of dance abilities, which would ensure that you should have a good time.

[One]

Have you ever been to Utopia???????????

I think if you did you would see a large range of dance abilities, which would ensure that you should have a good time.

I dont agree that a "large range of dance abilities ensure a good time".

I've been to Utopia quite a few times.

I've had some great nights there, and i've also had some average/boring nights there. Both seemed to be the result of how many people I KNEW.

If you're a "face", Gerry, you'll have a fabulous time. It's not the same if you're not.

I believe this to be true, not only from my own experiences, but from a number of occasions when I have seen people from my local venues turn up to Utopia for the first time, and haven't enjoyed it at all for the reasons I've stated (and won't be going back).

It's very visible that most people at Utopia make bee-lines for people they know. I'm not saying this is wrong either, some people travel a long way to get to Utopia, so its very understandable that certain people want to dance with friends/dance-aquaintances they only see on certain occasions.

[robd]

{stuff about Utopia}

Sounds very familiar theme to much of this thread. *Waits for it to be blamed on the WCS dancers that attend Utopia*

[One]

Sounds very familiar theme to much of this thread. *Waits for it to be blamed on the WCS dancers that attend Utopia*

After a little PM exchange with Gerry, I am now thinking that maybe it IS mainly because of the (wrong) perception people have of the place, (ie that everyone there are REALLY good dancers), and this perception stops people asking as many people to dance that they don't know out of intimidation.

People not asking as often, and consequently not being asked makes the place seem cliquey.


The fact that there ARE some ridiculously friendly WCS venues, rules out, for me, ANY association with WCS (the dance itself) and unfriendliness/elitism/however-you-want-to-define-it.

Some WCS venues definitely are more friendly than others, so surely it follows that its not the dance itself which is to blame, but other reasons.

[Northants Girly]

People not asking as often, and consequently not being asked makes the place seem cliquey.

Utopia has a gender balancing policy and because of this leaders do not get asked as much as they do at other non-gender balanced events.

[One]

Utopia has a gender balancing policy and because of this leaders do not get asked as much as they do at other non-gender balanced events.

Yes, this must play a part...

..however, I've been to Utopia (i'm male) and have received many invitations to dance (because I happened to know a lot of people on a particular night).

And I've been there other times and not been asked much at all. The only difference (I could identify) was I knew far fewer people.

The people I talked about above (from local venues) who didn't enjoy it didn't know many people and were both male & female. Maybe this wasn't the reason they felt that it was cliquey, but it was conclusion that I came to

Anyway this whole topic really is no big deal, Utopia dont' have a problem selling tickets, I suspect, & its not as if there's a shortage of dance venues

Sorry if all this is de-railing the thread

[Andy McGregor]

I can’t quite put my finger on it, but a lot of the more vigorous debate here feels to me like it’s more personally motivated than perhaps it should be.

Ahh, that would be me

However, I have nothing to say that I've not said on here. What keeps me chipping in is disagreement on here, not anything that is happening outside the virtual world of the forum. I said I'd had some of my students saying that WCS was a hard dance to start learning - I was told it wasn't hard and that I was wrong. Some of my students have told me that they've found WCS classes unfriendly. When I reported it on here I was told that is not true (because Paul Warden is friendly...) and my students are wrong/I am stirring/I've got it in for WCS/etc.

I can assure our readers that I've left nothing unsaid.

[jive-vee]

Yes, this must play a part...

..however, I've been to Utopia (i'm male) and have received many invitations to dance (because I happened to know a lot of people on a particular night).

And I've been there other times and not been asked much at all. The only difference (I could identify) was I knew far fewer people.

The people I talked about above (from local venues) who didn't enjoy it didn't know many people and were both male & female. Maybe this wasn't the reason they felt that it was cliquey, but it was conclusion that I came to

Anyway this whole topic really is no big deal, Utopia dont' have a problem selling tickets, I suspect, & its not as if there's a shortage of dance venues

Sorry if all this is de-railing the thread

I think a lot of people, myself included a lot of the time, just need to get over themselves This is honestly meant in a nice way, there is not generally a "reason" why people don't ask you to dance (whatever style, whatever venue) it's just the way it goes sometimes.

I've been dancing for a number of years now. When I started and was a new, nervous face a few people at my local MJ class would ask me to dance. After a few classes I was then brave enough to ask those for dances in return (if I'd enjoyed them - for whatever reason). A few more classes and I just wanted to dance lots, so as well as seeking out those I'd previously danced with, I'd ask whoever was free or would seek out those that looked fun.

Then I started venturing to freestyles further a field. Some would ask me, but often if I wanted to dance I would have to approach people myself. Again some I would seek out because I recognised them or they looked like someone I wanted to dance with (again, for a variety of reasons). Eventually I wanted more of a challenge and I wanted to improve so I also started to ask those that would give me that type of dance.

I started going to weekenders and did more of the same. Each time I went somewhere new I would encounter familiar faces and new faces. The familiar faces would sometimes became friends and/or favourites. Often a new face would become a new favourite that I'd seek out in future or vice versa and would eventually become a friend. That's just generally how it goes. Now when I go to a venue I might know, or at least be familiar with, a number of dancers there. It's true that I want to seek them out for dances but I also want to dance as much as possible so will ask a variety of people, for a variety of reasons. As a follower I accept that I often have to do a lot of the asking to get the dances I want. The last Utopia was a pleasant change for me that (despite the blistering heat) I was barely off the floor; each time I went to try to cool down, or get a drink or freshen up someone else was asking me for a dance.

The point is that this has all taken time. Going back to the original topic of WCS, it used to be a much smaller community than it is now and those that really wanted to dance it had to make it happen; hence they became a close-knitted group. I am not part of it, but do attend wcs events and love learning the dance whenever I get the chance. However, some of those that I have taken the time to get to know and ask for dances/chat with/have asked me for dances are now familiar faces or friends of mine. Nobody owes anybody a dance but if you take the time to put the effort in then you will find that the dance circle grows; and as RobD (I think?) has said before, I would much rather dance with those that I enjoy dancing with and make me feel good than those who don't.

[rtwwpad]

So, just back from the Swing Masters event in Manchester. Bit of a swings and roundabouts for me. Classes by Paul and Cat/Fab and Robert and Deborah were fantastic and cannot praise them enough. Class by /John Lindo was interesting, but got the impression he was a little tired and Torre and Brennar was ok and I know they are very young, but someone needs to show them how to talk to a class and give them all the information, rather than a piecemeal approach. In fact I would suggest they spend some time watching Robert and Deborah work a class and pick up the pointers.

Yes, I know - waits for stones and arrows to stop being aimed - they are young, but if you want to step up and charge people for your time, then you need to put the effort into the teaching skills as much as the obvious dance talent you have.

This was really a line dancing weekender with a wcs bolted on. Cabarets were great, including the line dance hip hop throwdown which got its arse kicked all over the place by an unbelievable little girl of about 5.

I had a rubbish personal dance experience on Friday. I had 4 dances and 4 refusals. I wouldn't mind refusals if they said " I don't dance with fat welshmen", " I can only dance with people who have no facial hair" but to just look me up and down and say no, means you're a dick. Why come if you don't want to dance or were you always so good you were never a beginner yourself. People like that could really down with some quality time in the hands of Mr N Moore Kneecaps.

Saturday saw the influx of a large Scottish contingent and others which almost doubled the numbers and saw a sea change in dance attitude. No refusals at all, smiling faces - I know I found it very strange after the dour expressions on Friday - and an atmosphere a lot like Southport Blues room (Bar area). I finished at 1.30 and went home on a high, despite getting wacked in the face by a lovely lady who had trouble spinning in a straight line earlier on in the evening ( I wasnt dancing with her at the time, she was next to me). If WCS was more like this then I think it would overcome some of the complaints levelled against it. Sunday lessons were good and I imagine they are dancing their little socks off as we speak.

I am now convinced more than ever that WCS could do with a taxi system (taxi's are buddy's not instructors, just to be clear, as defined in ceroc). This would help newcomers feel welcome and also foster a greater appreciation for people to remember that they were beginners once. Not only that but if the friendly good dancers get chosen then this may break down some of the cliqueness and general unpleasantness I experienced on Friday night. It wasn't just me, I met a lovely lady who had been wcs for 4-5 months and she was treated in a similair fashion to the extent she went out to a jive night on saturday rather than face being treated that way again.

Please feel free to defend/attack or engage in reasonable discussion as appropriate.

And can someone tell me who won the female intermediate Jack and Jill - I reckon it was one of Sarve, Naomi or Anna, but I could be wrong.

[Minnie M]

....... Robert and Deborah were fantastic and cannot praise them enough.....

Not sure if many know, Robert & Deborah were the first US WCS teachers to cross the pond and teach us Brits their dance, about 10 years ago, since then they have been back many times at weekends and for workshops and they are still the best for teaching WCS to MJ beginners.

[robd]

This was really a line dancing weekender with a wcs bolted on.

Not my view nor, I suspect, one a majority of those in the Swing room would share. I think this would have stood alone as a perfectly good weekender.

I had a rubbish personal dance experience on Friday. I had 4 dances and 4 refusals. I wouldn't mind refusals if they said " I don't dance with fat welshmen", " I can only dance with people who have no facial hair" but to just look me up and down and say no, means you're a dick. Why come if you don't want to dance or were you always so good you were never a beginner yourself. People like that could really down with some quality time in the hands of Mr N Moore Kneecaps.

I'm sure no-one's ever had an experience like this at a modern jive weekender.....

I am now convinced more than ever that WCS could do with a taxi system (taxi's are buddy's not instructors, just to be clear, as defined in ceroc).

I agree but don't see that this would help on a weekender event

And can someone tell me who won the female intermediate Jack and Jill - I reckon it was one of Sarve, Naomi or Anna, but I could be wrong.

No-one won the female intermediate J'n'J - there was no such category. Couples were judged as a partnership in the final and Steve Hall and Naomi took 1st place.

[rtwwpad]

Not my view nor, I suspect, one a majority of those in the Swing room would share. I think this would have stood alone as a perfectly good weekender.

um, over 500 linedancers and family, 150 wcs dancers, one room for wcs, two for line dance, shoes for line dancers, boots for line dancers, clothing for linedancers, photographers for line dancers, nothing for wcs

I'm not saying it couldn't attempt to stand on its own but 150 people wouldn't interest the palace or profloors.com very much. It was a line dance event with WCS bolted on. However the quality of WCS was very good.obviously the fact that paul, lee, fab, rachel all come from a line dance background and deborah as well meant that nearly every wcs teacher was also a line dancer. Its a logical fit.

[rtwwpad]

I'm sure no-one's ever had an experience like this at a modern jive weekender.....



I agree but don't see that this would help on a weekender event

I haven't had that experience on a weekender, well actually once I was refused. Perhaps its rose tinted glasses.

Taxis would help by breaking down the cliques and superioty complexes some people have at local classes and peer pressure would then do the rest of the work at these events. Its fine to feel superior and be a **** when you think your mates respect your "high" standards. Its another when you realise they think you're a stuck up twat. Being a buddy to newbies helps and while i am not suggesting a taxi should have to be a taxi at a weekender, there is nothing wrong with being a friendly face.

[alinp]

I'm sure no-one's ever had an experience like this at a modern jive weekender.....

In what must be at least a dozen MJ weekenders now, I can still count the number of refusals on one hand. Not been on a WCS one, so can't comment.

On the plus side, have to report that feeling far more comfortable at WCS now and, as yet, have had NO refusals and a good number of asks .

[Gerry]

In what must be at least a dozen MJ weekenders now, I can still count the number of refusals on one hand. Not been on a WCS one, so can't comment.

On the plus side, have to report that feeling far more comfortable at WCS now and, as yet, have had NO refusals and a good number of asks .

I still get refused at MJ events

[robd]

Taxis would help by breaking down the cliques and superioty complexes some people have at local classes and peer pressure would then do the rest of the work at these events. Its fine to feel superior and be a **** when you think your mates respect your "high" standards. Its another when you realise they think you're a stuck up twat. Being a buddy to newbies helps and while i am not suggesting a taxi should have to be a taxi at a weekender, there is nothing wrong with being a friendly face.

Wow, what excellent insight you must have to know exactly why some people are behaving as you perceive them to be behaving. Given your reverence towards your mentor Rocky I am sure you will not mind a little bluntness but what a crock of sh1t. If you are being refused 4 times in an evening then no doubt it is not a pleasant experience but it is perhaps also the cue for a little introspection rather than assuming it's because everyone who doesn't want to dance with you is a c*nt. The friendly face thing cuts both ways too. You, if I recall previous posts correctly, go to Twickenham and the workshops, yes? Why did you not join the loose gathering of those people in the seating area just inside and to the left of the door? Smile and say hi to people and suddenly you too can be part of the clique

[robd]

It was a line dance event with WCS bolted on.

I think our disagreement stems from the phrase 'bolted on' To me it's faintly derogatory as if the arrangements for the Swing dancers were an afterthought when clearly they were not. Yes, there are efficiencies of scale and the line weekend is a huge event so it makes sense to partner up for it but the Swing aspects of the weekend had just as much planning and attention as at any weekend event I have been to.

[robd]

And finally a review of the event itself.

Much improved in its new home in Manchester rather than Blackpool. Loads of cheap accomodation nearby plus a Sainsburys for midday snacks and beer replenishment, the Palace is a good location. When I first saw the swing room I thought it would be too small and the pillars would prove to be a problem but I was wrong on both counts. The floor in there was a bit too fast on Fri but mellowed to be absolutely perfect on Sat and Sun - don't think I have danced on a better floor. Once again I made the decision to dance through the night rather than attend daytime classes so I can't comment on the teaching. The floor in the late night bar area was nowhere near as good as the one in the main room but the room itself had a nice vibe. Music was mostly good though I didn't particularly enjoy the endless Blues on Fri night (yes, I know it was billed as such but I just don't really like that style) Gender balance wasn't great for the ladies, it never is at WCS. Comps were well organised and whilst I was disappointed not to place (and yes I know it's because my dancing looks crap! prioritising the social over the classes probably doesn't help me either ) I still really enjoyed the experience of competing. Cash prizes for all the top 3 too which makes me much happier to enter than at comps where all the money goes to first place. Will definately be looking to do this one again next year.

[mikeyr]

I haven't had that experience on a weekender, well actually once I was refused. Perhaps its rose tinted glasses.

Taxis would help by breaking down the cliques and superioty complexes some people have at local classes and peer pressure would then do the rest of the work at these events. Its fine to feel superior and be a **** when you think your mates respect your "high" standards. Its another when you realise they think you're a stuck up twat. Being a buddy to newbies helps and while i am not suggesting a taxi should have to be a taxi at a weekender, there is nothing wrong with being a friendly face.

Whats wrong with just asking the teachers or the more experienced in the class?