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Thread: WCS - a newbie's perspective

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You just click on the "post" button at the bottom of the post you wish to quote.
    How did I get this wrong? You click on the "Quote" button

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I've also seen *many* WCS explanations on here that leave me mystified - where I've felt the point of the post was "let me show how clever I am" rather than to actually inform. Now this might well be my own shortcomings - my WCS is very much at the beginner level. But I've had a fair amount of postiive feedback for my own "try to explain WCS" posts on here from people who are good, so I'm not convinced it's all my fault.
    I've had explanations from MJ teachers that have left me mystified. From that, I suspect that either they don't know what they're talking about, they can't explain it very well, or I'm not as smart as I think I am. I don't suspect that MJ is elitist.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    At the same time, when (several) people post "I went to XYZ and found it unfriendly", I don't find myself impressed by posts essentially saying "XYZ is friendly - the problem is with you".
    I find a lot of Ceroc and other MJ venues unfriendly. Particularly if you turn up as an outsider who is not a beginner. All of the criticisms I've seen levelled at WCS, I've experienced at Ceroc and MJ venues around the country - being largely ignored if you're new, having the local 'stars' refuse to even look at you, let along dance with you and so on. In fact, if I wander up to a new venue on my own, then this is actually more the rule than the exception.

    Once again, I look at the individuals involved (including myself - I am very shy and retiring), the organisers for that particular venue and so on. I don't leap to the conclusion that Ceroc/MJ is anything.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    That asks two questions.

    Firstly, is the perception of elitism actually justified? The thing to remember is that MJ is, in most cases, a very simplified form of partner dancing. For that reason, most other partner dances are going to be harder than MJ. How much of the perception of elitism is simply because people find that WCS is harder than MJ and think this is wrong.
    Well, it's a good question. "WCS dancers are snooty" is a meme - but whether that's a meme simply because it gets repeated, or whether there's some justification for it, I can't say.

    I can only offer some indirect evidence to support it - Tango does not seem to elicit such a response amongst MJ dancers; but AT is similarly a difficult dance in comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Secondly, can you explain what is wrong with elitism?
    Depends what you mean by the term.

    In this context, it seems to mean "unfriendly" or "unwelcoming". I'd definitely argue that both of those are bad things. But "elitism" as "valuing talent", no, that's a good thing of course.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I find a lot of Ceroc and other MJ venues unfriendly. Particularly if you turn up as an outsider who is not a beginner. All of the criticisms I've seen levelled at WCS, I've experienced at Ceroc and MJ venues around the country - being largely ignored if you're new, having the local 'stars' refuse to even look at you, let along dance with you and so on. In fact, if I wander up to a new venue on my own, then this is actually more the rule than the exception.
    Wierd, I've always found it the other way round (well, classes nights anyway) - new venues i've attended I've always been pounced on as 'new blood'. But apart from my 'regular' WCS class, I've never found the same at the other limited WCS venues I've attended. I think this is largely to do with the standard you want to be dancing with - there's a lot more variation in levels of dancers at WCS than MJ, therefore it's only natural that people will look to dance with people who are their level or higher. However, it not having the 'dance with everyone mentality' that is promoted to beginners in ceroc does make good WCS dancers seem more unapproachable (even though they may not be once you get to know them).

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Depends what you mean by the term.

    In this context, it seems to mean "unfriendly" or "unwelcoming". I'd definitely argue that both of those are bad things. But "elitism" as "valuing talent", no, that's a good thing of course.
    I wasn't the one making the accusation - so what I take it to mean is largely irrelevant. The point I was getting at was that, in my experience, people may claim the former when the reality is closer to the latter. For the simple reason that there are words - like "unfriendly" and "unwelcoming" - that can be used if that's the real problem.

    My own position is clear: being elite is fine, as long as it's based on merit. I certainly don't like the idea of WCS as the Jesus dance that will save you from MJ and all other sins. But this attitude seems most common among new converts; less so among the people who actually understand the teachings. Ironically, it's those who actually understand WCS are the real elite.
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Wierd, I've always found it the other way round (well, classes nights anyway) - new venues i've attended I've always been pounced on as 'new blood'.
    Yes, but you're female. And I don't really look like I'll be a particularly good dancer (irrespective of whether or not I am). I'm reasonably good at watching people and how they behave: the way new women are treated at most MJ venues is very different from the way new men are treated. If a new woman turns up at one of my regular venues, I can easily list the guys who will ask her to dance, based on her age and attractiveness. This is universal at most forms of dance, but where the emphasis is less on the quality of the dancing itself, this sort of behaviour is going to be far more common.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    the way new women are treated at most MJ venues is very different from the way new men are treated. If a new woman turns up at one of my regular venues, I can easily list the guys who will ask her to dance, based on her age and attractiveness. This is universal at most forms of dance, but where the emphasis is less on the quality of the dancing itself, this sort of behaviour is going to be far more common.
    I agree that it's possible to list the guys who will approach a new lady. However, this "welcoming" isn't limited to guys. I regularly see new ladies having a good look the fresh new men - as opposed to us guys that are well thumbed.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I agree that it's possible to list the guys who will approach a new lady. However, this "welcoming" isn't limited to guys. I regularly see new ladies having a good look the fresh new men - as opposed to us guys that are well thumbed.
    Some of them are, of course, just being nice. Of course there are people of either gender (and perhaps some who are both) who do this. But in my experience (and observation) it's far more overt and prevalent from guys.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    But in my experience (and observation) it's far more overt and prevalent from guys.
    I think we notice it more because we can't get a dance with these new ladies. Some guys monopolise ladies they fancy and dance with them for track after track. I've actually had to ask some guys to stop frightening off the beginners in their first week or two. Their defense is "I'm a single guy, what's wrong with asking a single lady on a date?" My answer is "because they never come back to my dance class once you've asked them - and, it seems, you're still single so there must be something wrong!" If they ask me what' wrong I tell them I can only provide dance coaching, I can't get a date either

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Yes, but you're female.
    I'm not, and I find my experience is closer to hers than yours. On the other hand, I grant you that to a large extent people make the effort because they think I'm a good dancer (they are probably mistaken, but if they knew much about dancing they'd be dancing WCS {rimshot}). I certainly don't have the same 'aura' at WCS venues.

    But as a general rule, I'd say MJ is more welcoming of people who "probably aren't ever going to be particularly good" than WCS is.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    The title of this thread is “wcs - a newbie’s perspective”. For experienced wcs-ers to post how friendly and non-elitist they feel their venues to be is, to some extent, irrelevant. Theirs is not a newbie perspective. One can also argue whether the perception of elitism is justified, and if so whether change is possible or desirable, but again, I don’t feel that is really the point. Maybe the newbies posting here will have a change of opinion once they become wcs insiders, but they are posting their feelings now. Opinions are not ‘wrong’, and they are what this thread is all about.


    I have had exactly the same experiences as glads. I’ve been doing wcs for a little while now but I still consider myself to be a newbie because I have had virtually no dances with experienced dancers and I don’t really feel that I have grasped wcs yet to any degree of competence.

    There are some lovely characters in wcs. For example, Gerry is very sweet and willing to dance with wcs beginners, and he dances with me when I (unfortunately rarely) see him at MJ freestyles. He genuinely does walk the friendly walk as well as talking the friendly talk. Mike Rosa has also been extremely kind and welcoming to me on the rare occasions when I have bumped into him - I’m sure he hasn’t a clue who I am and hasn’t remembered me from the last time but is simply being nice to another newbie.

    There haven’t been wcs freestyles in my area up until now but I occasionally see wcs dancers at MJ events. I don’t ask them for wcs dances any more as I find the rebuffs or charity dance attitudes aren’t what I’m looking for on a good night out, and I don’t enjoy being made to feel like a worm. I hope I improve my wcs to a stage where that sort of person can manage to tolerate a dance with me, which is obviously taking me longer for the lack of experience. I am willing to hold up my hand and accept that this is my own problem: if I don’t ask, I won’t get the dances. But on the other hand, dancing with someone who makes it blindingly obvious that they would rather be elsewhere, has no intention of making the dance a pleasant experience and wants to make sure blame for a sub-standard dance is clearly seen to be in the right place...this does not improve my dancing at all - what am I going to learn from a dance like that? So my personal choice is to take a bit longer to make the grade but to try to enjoy the journey.

    I take on board the whole thing about how boring/rubbish/unsatisfying it can be to dance with beginners. Plenty has been posted on this forum about the pros and cons, but IMO, a nice person takes the trouble to do the odd thing for others whether it benefits them or not. A few tracks out of an evening to dance with newbies, whether MJ or wcs, isn’t going to kill you any more than helping little old ladies across the road or being polite to a shop assistant will. I’m not religious, I don’t have any moral axe to grind, but personally I would rather live my life treating other people as I would like them to treat me. I dance with wcs-ers who are even less good than myself... yes, unbelievably they do exist!....I would love to be good enough to dance with better dancers but even so, I wouldn’t drop those beginner dancers like hot rocks in the way I have seen others do as they climb the wcs ladder – how scuzzy would that be? I haven’t done that as I’ve improved in jive, why would I undergo a personality transplant and do that in wcs?

    A nice person is a nice person, regardless of their chosen dance genre. Being on the receiving end of a snotty attitude should not, IMO, be put down to being an aspect of the dance style involved. If people change their attitude and behaviour because they get better at wcs, that also shouldn’t be seen as an aspect of the dance.

    ...You know what they say...you don’t have to have a bad attitude in order to dance wcs, but it helps!

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    "because they never come back to my dance class once you've asked them - and, it seems, you're still single so there must be something wrong!" If they ask me what' wrong I tell them I can only provide dance coaching, I can't get a date either
    And of course, they come back once you've given them a bit of coaching and a date with 'you'?
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    charity dance attitudes aren’t what I’m looking for
    [snip]
    a nice person takes the trouble to do the odd thing for others whether it benefits them or not.
    Hmmm.......

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    The title of this thread is “wcs - a newbie’s perspective”. For experienced wcs-ers to post how friendly and non-elitist they feel their venues to be is, to some extent, irrelevant.
    I agree Its up to the more experienced dancers, teachers and organisers to listen, take note and do something about it!
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I have had exactly the same experiences as glads. I’ve been doing wcs for a little while now but I still consider myself to be a newbie because I have had virtually no dances with experienced dancers and I don’t really feel that I have grasped wcs yet to any degree of competence.

    -snip-

    A nice person is a nice person, regardless of their chosen dance genre. Being on the receiving end of a snotty attitude should not, IMO, be put down to being an aspect of the dance style involved. If people change their attitude and behaviour because they get better at wcs, that also shouldn’t be seen as an aspect of the dance. [/FONT]
    When I quote what I've been hearing it's been from WCS novices like glads and Moondancer I keep hering from "newbies" and novices that it's a common experience - I keep hearing from WCS dancers and teachers that it's completely wrong. Someone is wrong - and when it comes to how "newbies" are made to feel those trying to attract and retain "newbies" really do need to take heed of what they are saying.

    There's a quote that's worth considering by those WCS dancers who've been failing to welcome "newbies". It comes from the bible;

    Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
    (Hebrews 13:2)

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Hmmm.......
    A charity dance is one where you are made to feel as if you are the recipient of great bounty.

    A nice person can give what to them may be a charity dance, without the recipient being made to feel that is what it is.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I agree Its up to the more experienced dancers, teachers and organisers to listen, take note and do something about it!
    I can understand the motivation for teachers and organisers (and mostly, in WCS, those are one and the same) to encourage and cultivate newcomers but why is there the expectation that experienced dancers will do the same? Some will do this, some will not depending on their own personality. Nothing to do with the dance style. The fact it's a relatively small scene probably concentrates the impact that the actions of one or two individuals have on the perception of the scene as a whole. It also means that if you are unable or unwilling to travel then your ability to progress will suffer since you will not be exposed to different teaching approaches and, like it or not, the pool of experienced WCS dancers in this country remains deepest, by quite some margin, in the West London area.

    Personally, I can see why some newcomers may feel unwelcome at some events (in both MJ and WCS) but I don't think this thread will do anything to help resolve that (besides alerting other newcomers to venues that seem friendlier than others perhaps) Talking to the organisers at those venues may see some progress (and that doesn't have to mean face to face on the same night). With my own actions I am neither particularly encouraging nor, I hope, discouraging to newcomers. I don't feel an imperative to 'work the room' but will, on occasion, do so. I don't feel obliged to dance with anyone and everyone and don't wish to be made to feel that way. I pay my money, I make my choice. It's the same in MJ as in WCS.

    EDIT - I wrote 'I hope' before discouraging because I know from experience that offence can sometimes be taken quite unwittingly. I might smile to convey appreciation for something and find the follower thinks I am taking the p*ss
    Last edited by robd; 26th-July-2010 at 05:16 PM.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I don't feel an imperative to 'work the room' but will, on occasion, do so. I don't feel obliged to dance with anyone and everyone and don't wish to be made to feel that way. I pay my money, I make my choice. It's the same in MJ as in WCS.
    I think it's all to do with expectation and culture. Consider a cinema, you pay to watch a movie - but you expected to act in a certain way. Do not disturb the other customers. Keep speaking loudly or standing up and you will be asked to leave. The defence "I've paid my money I can do what I like" is a poor defence.

    Similarly, someone who attends a dance class and refuses requests for a dance might, or might not be complying with the culture of that class. And the culture depends on what is promoted by the teacher or organiser. If an organiser or teacher promotes a culture where refusing a dance is acceptable they will have a class where people are refused and they will get the reputation they deserve.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Similarly, someone who attends a dance class and refuses requests for a dance might, or might not be complying with the culture of that class. And the culture depends on what is promoted by the teacher or organiser. If an organiser or teacher promotes a culture where refusing a dance is acceptable they will have a class where people are refused and they will get the reputation they deserve.
    To be fair, we're not really talking about refusals; more a culture where people don't seek out beginners and perhaps don't hide the fact they'd rather be dancing with J Random Hotshot instead. What's more, we're really only talking about a (few) venues (in either MJ or WCS).

    Shoot me, but I don't particularly see that as wrong (*). It's not the MJ culture, and I don't think it's healthy for any dance scene to have that as "the norm", but at the same time, I think having a few venues and events that are aimed at fairly experienced dancers is not a bad thing.

    In many ways, it seems a lot of criticism might be averted by a statement along the lines of "Look, Twickenham on a Wednesday has been going a couple of years, it's basically the only place where WCSers can find lots of experienced partners to dance with, and as such there's not a lot of coddling of beginners".

    [Not that I've ever been to Twickers on a Weds, so that description might be total nonsense, but you get the idea].

    (*) OK, I think the "lack of hiding..." is wrong, but as Rob says, how you come across to your partner is not always something you can control.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I can understand the motivation for teachers and organisers ~snip~ but why is there the expectation that experienced dancers will do the same?
    I see your point and who I 'should' have aimed it to is 'teacher, organisers and... those experienced dancers who dislike and take offence to the criticism of WCS being un-welcoming, when they themselves make no effort.
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Wierd, I've always found it the other way round (well, classes nights anyway)
    Perhaps excluding semi-jive such as Utopia, I think a big advantage of modern jive is to able to turn up on your own, somewhere you've never been before and be reasonably confident of having a good time.

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