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Thread: WCS - a newbie's perspective

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Actually, I prefer to think of WCS as a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of modern jive, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like dancers.

    But you know me - always looking for the best side of everyone...

    I know it spoils it to say "that's a joke, people", but given it would be really offensive if people took it seriously, I'm putting in this disclaimer.
    Hahahahhahahahha, that put a smile on my face.

    As Alinp says I'm finding the classes which are beginner and improver level more friendly than the beginner advanced classes. Probably because everyone is in the same boat and a lot of crossover from Jive as well (Monday night was 8 mj i know inc. me, about a quarter of the class).

    As for music. Samantha B says you should be able to dance WCS from 60-150 bpm, although the more modern preferred range is 80-120.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Personally I'm confident I'm in the top quartile as far as asking beginners in WCS.
    Coo.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    But my point is that I cannot help observing that unlike in {salsa / AT / MJ }

    • Dancing with beginner followers below a certain basic level is much less enjoyable and often frustrating.


    • It is usually very obvious why things are not working (as in what the follower is doing wrong to cause it).
      (and there appears no obvious connection to the quality of the lead)
    I don't know enough about WCS to comment much, except to say that:

    • Dancing with beginners is always less "enjoyable" in a sense, in all dances, than dancing with experts.
    • In the dances I do know, I can lead a beginner in all of them. I may need to make some compromises in what I lead, but I can still lead them.


    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Therefore the question arises as to whether it is fair to apply standards from one dance, to what looks to be a considerably different situation.
    It's a reasonable question. It may be that WCS is so inherently different from the dance forms I know that making comparisons is not useful.

    But then I'm not even in the bottom quartile, so I don't know

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    I have never post here before but have been reading this thread with interest. I've been helping run 2 MJ venues for the last 8 years, and started learning WCS about 2 years ago, by means of workshops/weekenders, until starting to attend a regular class in my area a few months ago. Since going to this class, with I must say, excellent teachers, my WCS and my confidence level has improved no end (as a follower) - however the only time I get asked to dance during social dancing is by the teachers (bless them).

    What I want to say then, is that whilst I accept that people tend to dance with friends/people they know there is most definitely a snobbery and elitism blatantly apparent amongst WCS dancers to a far greater degree than at any MJ venue! At the last weekender I attended I plucked up courage to ask for a couple of dances and the although the people concerned did deign to dance with me, the looks of disdain upon their faces nearly led me to walk off the dance floor! Come on folks, WCS should be fun, funky and enjoyable, just like MJ - not look at me, aren't I wonderful, I can do this fantastic dance!

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by glads View Post
    What I want to say then, is that whilst I accept that people tend to dance with friends/people they know there is most definitely a snobbery and elitism blatantly apparent amongst WCS dancers to a far greater degree than at any MJ venue! At the last weekender I attended I plucked up courage to ask for a couple of dances and the although the people concerned did deign to dance with me, the looks of disdain upon their faces nearly led me to walk off the dance floor! Come on folks, WCS should be fun, funky and enjoyable, just like MJ - not look at me, aren't I wonderful, I can do this fantastic dance!
    This is one half of the problem. The other half is that you get demonised for saying such a thing - look out glads, you might find people at WCS don't ask you to dance. Hang on, that's happening anyhow! It seems you've got nothing to lose and you've done the right thing by pointing out how it seems to you. Without people like glads there will be no change.

    One day soon I hope that attitudes will change within WCS. But there will be no change until people accept there is a need to change - well done glads for taking people one step further towards recognising that change is needed

    N.B. No doubt we'll get people posting to say that WCS classes are all inclusive, extra friendly, teachers want to have your babies, I am Paul Warden's gimp*, etc. This means that they'll become even more entrenched and resistant to change!

    *I've applied, it seems there's a waiting list

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This is one half of the problem. The other half is that you get demonised for saying such a thing - look out glads, you might find people at WCS don't ask you to dance. Hang on, that's happening anyhow! It seems you've got nothing to lose and you've done the right thing by pointing out how it seems to you. Without people like glads there will be no change.

    One day soon I hope that attitudes will change within WCS. But there will be no change until people accept there is a need to change - well done glads for taking people one step further towards recognising that change is needed

    N.B. No doubt we'll get people posting to say that WCS classes are all inclusive, extra friendly, teachers want to have your babies, I am Paul Warden's gimp*, etc. This means that they'll become even more entrenched and resistant to change!

    *I've applied, it seems there's a waiting list
    Andy
    You really seem to be enjoying this WCS bashing.

    But there is snobbery within MJ and at all levels. I have been dancing 10 / 11 years, I still get refused by girls that I think are quality dancers. There is one who recently has won a number of competitions.
    Do I go and get upset and think I am crap or do I stand tall and make sure I still enjoy myself with girls that actually want to dance with me.

    I think newbies still need to stand up and get themselves known as much as the old order needs to embrace the new.

    You can't put the blame all in one corner.

    I still remember when I first started WCS and the followers used to pull me up to social dance when I had no confidence. Likewise I still get asked by girls that make me feel uncomfortable after 3.5 years of trying to do WCS.

    This is all part of lifes rich tapestry.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    If I may make one further comment following my observations of some excellent examlpes of WCS last night.......

    F F S people... SMILE!!!!!

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Andy
    You really seem to be enjoying this WCS bashing.
    Joke 1

    Q - How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?

    A - Only one, but it's got to want to change.


    Joke 2

    Q - How many people have got to say that they found WCS dancers unfriendly before people realise that something needs to change?

    A - Nobody knows, because we've not reached that number.


    Unfortunately Gerry seems to see my comments and those of glads and many others as "WCS bashing". I see us as raising awareness of the need to change for the better. I'm not pointing out this problem because I want to do the WCS market harm - I'm doing exactly the opposite, I'm trying to help it to improve. But it does feel like I'm wasting my breath when I get told I'm "WCS bashing".

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    If I may make one further comment following my observations of some excellent examlpes of WCS last night.......

    F F S people... SMILE!!!!!
    So are you suggesting people should be grinning like Cheshire Cats throughout the dance?

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post

    I think newbies still need to stand up and get themselves known as much as the old order needs to embrace the new.


    and what's more, this applies to ALL social dancing, not just WCS.

    I've had many a pleasant surprise when asking someone new at my regular MJ venues .
    Last edited by alinp; 22nd-July-2010 at 04:45 PM.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    F F S people... SMILE!!!!!
    And this helps you to dance better in what way exactly?

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    So are you suggesting people should be grinning like Cheshire Cats throughout the dance?
    If they're enjoying what they're doing, then surely their faces should show this. Some looked soooooooooo serious!!

    (there were some who smiled, but I'm sorry - it was definately a minority)

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    And this helps you to dance better in what way exactly?
    Okay - I personally think that if you're enjoying yourself, then smiling shows this and trasmits your pleasure to your partner, hence improving the their esteem and confidence which in turn leads to a better experience for both parties.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    If they're enjoying what they're doing, then surely their faces should show this. Some looked soooooooooo serious!!

    (there were some who smiled, but I'm sorry - it was definately a minority)
    I don't agree that if people aren't smiling when dancing then they are not enjoying the dance. WCS can be very intimate and smiling is appropriate sometimes but dependant on music, partner, ambience, etc frankly may not be. Surely expression through dance does not only involve smiling.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Actually Gerry I AM standing up and making myself known at WCS but honestly, a girl could get a complex by being ignored so much! My friend has been dancing WCS longer than me and she feels the same - if we get a good dance with someone we feel like some kind of honour has been done to us!
    You WCS dancers really need to get the message, there are many other people who feel the same way as I do, and we cant improve our dancing if we're either not being asked or made to feel like the dog's dinner for asking!

    Yes it's true, people do refuse dances in MJ and people are up their own backsides there too, probably because I'm more at home and confident with MJ it doesn't bother me, but the whole MJ environment is definitely more welcoming to beginners without a doubt.

    By the way Andy - thank you for your support!!

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I think newbies still need to stand up and get themselves known as much as the old order needs to embrace the new.
    I agree. I don't deny that there are unfriendly, unwelcoming people at WCS just as there are at MJ or (I'd presume) any other social dance occasion. However I know that if I go to a new venue or I am not well known at a venue that the onus is on me to approach people rather than me to be sought out as the newcomer. If I find anyone to be unwelcoming I don't approach them again - I prefer to spend my time dancing with those who would like to dance with me than fretting about those who would not.

    The gender balance at WCS can sometimes be even more acutely unfair to followers than at MJ and this can lead, I am sure, to harassed leaders perhaps not having the opportunity or inclination to seek out new faces.
    Last edited by robd; 22nd-July-2010 at 04:53 PM. Reason: sp

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    If I may make one further comment following my observations of some excellent examlpes of WCS last night.......

    F F S people... SMILE!!!!!
    I've not been to Twickenham but I think the whole "smiling" thing is quite a harsh criticism of Westies. Whatever style I'm dancing I'm not generally a "fixed grin dancer". I smile when asking for a dance, I smile at the end, I smile if making eye-contact, I smile and laugh when it goes wrong. However I'm usually either in the music/moment or trying to focus on picking up as many queues as possible to help me adapt to the leader I'm dancing with and the music we're dancing to. I guess this could make me appear quite serious to some but it doesn't mean I am, or that I'm miserable, or not enjoying the dance.

    Personally I much prefer an occasional genuine smile to a fake permanent grin any day of the week.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    Unfortunately Gerry seems to see my comments and those of glads and many others as "WCS bashing". I see us as raising awareness of the need to change for the better. I'm not pointing out this problem because I want to do the WCS market harm - I'm doing exactly the opposite, I'm trying to help it to improve. But it does feel like I'm wasting my breath when I get told I'm "WCS bashing".
    Andy
    My comments were made towards you, I didn't mention GLADS.

    I spoke with ALINP last nite concerning the WCS monday class. I know some of the followers and they have told me that the Monday class is less intimidating and they would gladly ask Peter Fradley for a dance. Unfortunately on a Wednesday they wouldn't go near Peter because a lot of the better followers are there and they don't feel good enough.

    Surely this is down to their own feeling concerning there own dance abilities.

    I know that I try and dance with some of the newbies, and I hope I don't intimidate them. I know that I sometime make noises when dancing and in the past some of the followers have felt that they have done something wrong. Once they have raised this point I tell them its usually down to a mistake that I have made. Luckly most of them seem more than happy to dance with me again.

    Yes, all the intermediate and advanced dancers need to ask the Newbies for a dance but they also need to get up and ask aswell. If they all just sit and look scared with a look that say's please don't ask me, unfortunately they wont get asked.

    Any newbie reading this, if they see me, please ask me for a dance, I will be more than happy to dance with them.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    I don't agree that if people aren't smiling when dancing then they are not enjoying the dance. WCS can be very intimate and smiling is appropriate sometimes but dependant on music, partner, ambience, etc frankly may not be. Surely expression through dance does not only involve smiling.
    I think it's worth noting that this thread was started as a newcomers perspective on WCS (and perhaps the WCS scene) and many valid points are being made by newcomers. Some may not think they're correct, but that is their perception.

    First impressions can be hard to break and it seems similar impressions have been gained in different areas of the country, but with the common theme of a perceived elitism within WCS.

    The question therefore is.... does the WCS community want to change this?? From some of the replies, I wonder!!

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Okay - I personally think that if you're enjoying yourself, then smiling shows this and trasmits your pleasure to your partner, hence improving the their esteem and confidence which in turn leads to a better experience for both parties.
    I am a bit of a frowner in both my MJ and my WCS dancing. I tend to smile most often when either myself or partner or both have done something wrong (or sometimes when partner does something that surprises me)

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post


    and what's more, this applies to ALL social dancing, not just WCS.

    I've had many a pleasant surprise when asking someone new at my regular venues .
    Exactly, and dancing with someone different there's always something to take away from it.

    I think with WCS, some teachers need to be more approachable in freestyles. While I understand they don't necessarily want to dance with beginners when they're not in teaching mode, i do think to try and break down some of the 'unfriendliness' barriers which WCS seems to have they should accept a request to dance. I've been turned down before (after plucking up the courage for ages to ask a particular teacher to dance - I was probably more an improver than beginner at the time), and another teacher standing nearby was horrified and said something to him about how rude it was. I definitely won't be asking him again. Thankfully the other occasions i've asked teachers from other venues they've been willing to dance with anyone who's asked...much more sociable IMO.

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