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Thread: WCS - a newbie's perspective

  1. #21
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    ...I'm sorry, but I find this attitude appauling. We were all beginners once and I seriously doubt would have progressed without encouragement from those more experienced.
    I'm interested in specifically what specific attitude is that you find appauling.

    In classes I reckon WCS dancers tend be quite encouraging; much less so for the freestyle.

    Perhaps it might be much more important in WCS for dancers to be sufficiently motivated not to need much of said encouragement ?


    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    ...I can't see the problem with a helpful hint every now and again - you never know, they may appreciate it.
    I agree with you. Personally I appreciate being told when I'm doing something wrong.

    But there does seem to be a thing about not teaching on the dance floor.

    In my comments, I'm assuming that is kept to, but consider that relaxing it would alter the equation.

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Personally I think disposition and situation can sometimes form a pretty tight inter-relationship.
    I agree, but in this situation.

    A question might be best aimed at people who are comparable involved in both dances at a reasonably similar level; whether they treat beginners similarly.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I am puzzled by your (implicit) assumption that compromises automatically lead to bad habits. It's not a viewpoint with which I concur.
    I'm not proposing that all compromises lead to bad habits.

    But I think it takes a much more skilled leader than in modern jive for it them not to.


    In WCS the lady has her specific and very different job to do.
    Similarly to ladies 'helping' men by backleading them in jive.;
    I'd question how much I'm helping by making the dance feel OK, when she isn't doing her job, and pretending it is all great (which is what I do).

    I'm being completely specific to WCS here, for reasons for better put than I would on another forum http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost...7&postcount=84


    I'm very interested in other viewpoints / resolutions to this.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I'm interested in specifically what specific attitude is that you find appauling.
    To me, it seems the tone of your post was that you would not want to dance with beginners - if I'm wrong, then apologies, but it is this attitude of elitism that has given WCS a bad name in some circles!!

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    this attitude of elitism that has given WCS a bad name in some circles!!
    How delightfully ironic that a circle of people consider another group to be closed off to them.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    How delightfully ironic that a circle of people consider another group to be closed off to them.
    I agree this is ironic. However, I think it's just semantics.

    There is no doubt that there is a certain type of person who, once they've become good at something, looks down on those who aren't quite as good. Often those people will even find a way of looking down on those people who are better than them - e.g. they are obviously geeks or have no life if they've got the time to spend getting better than me.

    The thing to remember is that MJ and WCS are primarily social dances. If some people are excluding others or regularly refusing dances they are being anti-social - this means they aren't getting it right at all.

    My advice to those people who are too good to dance with beginners is to start competing and stay away from social events. If they must attend classes they should stay away from the social dancing that follows the class - it doesn't suit them as they are, as I said, anti-social.

    Please note, I'm not getting at WCS dancers, I've observed this anti-social behavior at MJ dances as well.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    How delightfully ironic that a circle of people consider another group to be closed off to them.


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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    My advice to those people who are too good to dance with beginners
    By the Dick Crum scale:

    1. Beginning Dancer: knows nothing.
    2. Intermediate Dancer: knows everything; too good to dance with beginners.
    3. Hotshot Dancer: too good to dance with anyone.
    4. Advanced Dancer: dances everything, especially with beginners.
    So that'd be an intermediate dancer then. Or, as I call them, on the Bailey scale, "bloody intermediate dancer".

    I'm also not convinced by this:
    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    You have to dance with people better than yourself in order to progress.
    I think this is only one component of progression in any dance. But then, so is dancing with people at your own level, or people just starting out.

    Don't get me wrong - as a leader, if I dance with a follower better than myself, this gives me confidence to experiment and relax, and it opens my mind to new possibilities. But if I only dance with followers better than myself, I'll get used to followers being able to interpret my lead, however sloppy - so I'm not necessarily going to improve the clarity of my lead, because a really good follower will be able to "lend me" some of her skill.

    Whereas, if I dance with a beginner, if my lead is not 100% clear, she won't be able to follow it. So whilst my musicality, expressiveness and creativity may not get a workout from dancing with beginners, other things will.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post


    So to answer Andy's question, I don't think WCS is made too hard, but its definately not as friendly as Ceroc. People can be quite precious about the footwork in lessons but after sitting down and watching the dancing going on there is a lot of 'coasting' going on in the freestyle.

    Given Cats rude response to me on facebook I can’t really see WCS changing.

    Generally an elitist self opinionated bunch that always moans they don’t have enough WCS dancers, I wonder why?

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Given Cats rude response to me on facebook I can’t really see WCS changing.
    And you've never had a rude response on here have you?

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Generally an elitist self opinionated bunch that always moans they don’t have enough WCS dancers, I wonder why?
    I really really really don't think that WCS dancers are elitist scum who should be shot.
    Well, not all of them anyway.

    My opinion on "friction" is that this mainly occurs when you mix groups of WCS-ers and MJ-ers mixing; for example, when you get a new-starter WCS-er who suddenly decides they're Too Good To Jive. At an MJ event.

    This - IMO - has nothing to do with the dance itself, and everything to do with the dance scene's dependence on MJ for "feeders" in the UK, and on the immaturity (dance and otherwise) of some of the people learning it.

    I think this is a self-correcting thing; as time goes on, WCS will develop further as an independent dance form, so there should be less clashes.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    I think this is a self-correcting thing; as time goes on, WCS will develop further as an independent dance form, so there should be less clashes.
    I agree that this is likely to be less so in the future, especially if challenged more, but (IMHO) not due to WCS developing independently, but more due to the cross over of MJers into WCS and taking the "dance with anyone" approach with them.

    As Andy points out, this is social dancing, and the more people that can dance both MJ & WCS, then surely the better .

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I'm also not convinced by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by robd
    You have to dance with people better than yourself in order to progress.
    I think this is only one component of progression in any dance. But then, so is dancing with people at your own level, or people just starting out.
    I don't think my assertion contradicts your POV. I think that dancing with people of all levels of experience and ability does help you to progress as a dancer. However I do also believe that you cannot progress if you do not do so i.e it is essential to progression (and I suppose at a literal level it is impossible not to dance with better dancers at some stage)


    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Whereas, if I dance with a beginner, if my lead is not 100% clear, she won't be able to follow it.
    There's an implicit assumption here that 'one lead fits all' - am I misreading that?

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    My opinion on "friction" is that this mainly occurs when you mix groups of WCS-ers and MJ-ers mixing; for example, when you get a new-starter WCS-er who suddenly decides they're Too Good To Jive. At an MJ event.
    OR, it could be that they're just about 'getting it' but they feel they're not quite at the stage where they're confident they have have a few MJ's, without 'loosing' it all again

    Its all about perception.

    But the fact of the matter is, if one week, someone appears to be open and happy to dance with everyone and the next week they come along and dance only WCS with a few chosen ones.. I can kind of see where the bad press comes from
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I don't think my assertion contradicts your POV.
    No, but it's one of those easily-misinterpreted things.

    Clearly, if you spend your time dancing with just beginners, your primary skills developed will be those that are most useful to dance with just beginners. That's why taxi dancers sometimes find their dancing is not always suited for more advanced dancers.

    Conversely, if you spend your time dancing with just people better than you, you'll mainly get better at the stuff that helps when dancing with people better than you. That's why performance dancers are usually rubbish at social dancing.

    If you want to be a good social dancer, you need to dance socially with a wide range of people, so you can develop a skillset allowing you to, well, dance with a wide range of people.

    But some people - bloody-intermediates usually - will not think that way, and will only dance with "The good ones", under the illusion that this alone will improve their dancing. And it won't. Yes, you dance "better" with better partners, but that's because they're helping you lift your game. It's not necessarily an indication that your own dancing is improving.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    There's an implicit assumption here that 'one lead fits all' - am I misreading that?
    Ummm... dunno. In WCS, I know nothing, I can't speak for the differences there.

    In MJ, AT or salsa.... mmmm.... I dance to the level and style of my partner of course, so that means I dance differently. But I don't know whether that means my lead is different. In AT, I think my lead is pretty much the same, the change is mainly in what I lead.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Given Cats rude response to me on facebook I can’t really see WCS changing.
    Do you mean Ms Catriona Wiles?

    I understand that some ladies like you to use their full name. Perhaps that's why you got a rude response. Or it could be because you deserve it

  16. #36
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    To me, it seems the tone of your post was that you would not want to dance with beginners ... this attitude of elitism that has given WCS a bad name in some circles!!
    Personally I'm confident I'm in the top quartile as far as asking beginners in WCS.

    But my point is that I cannot help observing that unlike in
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    ...MJ (Modern Jive), AT (Tango) or salsa....
    • Dancing with beginner followers below a certain basic level is much less enjoyable and often frustrating.


    • It is usually very obvious why things are not working (as in what the follower is doing wrong to cause it).
      (and there appears no obvious connection to the quality of the lead)



    Therefore the question arises as to whether it is fair to apply standards from one dance, to what looks to be a considerably different situation.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post

    Personally I'm confident I'm in the top quartile as far as asking beginners in WCS.
    Gald to hear it

    Anyway - moving on (and kinda back to rt's original purpose in posting this thread), after attending a couple of Improver workshops and Monday's Improver class, I decided to jump in with both feet and went to Twickenham again tonight.

    There were a few faces I knew and all the WCS crew were very nice. But despite that, only 1 person took the effort to come and say hi to a newcomer to the venue (thanks Gerry), but I'm honestly not having a go here. That's probably not uncommon wherever you go.

    I think I managed to cope with Paul's class ok and danced a majority of the night. It seemed there were the occasioanl glances from partners as if to say "what was that" and here (picking up on Frodo's point) I would have loved it if I could have had some feedback as to what wasn't working.

    I will go again (time and money permitting) and, as with most dance venues, I really think it's a case of getting your face known. The more you go, the more you become part of the "gang" - that's the same everywhere. We all dance with our friends and have regular partners wherever we go, whether that's WCS or MJ.

    So - all in all - not a horrendous experience, although certainly not in my comfort zone.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    To me, it seems the tone of your post was that you would not want to dance with beginners - if I'm wrong, then apologies, but it is this attitude of elitism that has given WCS a bad name in some circles!!
    Speaking personally, I've no problem with anything that happens at WCS classes or dances. They can have a different culture and be as elitist as they like. However, I keep getting people who do WCS coming along to my MJ nights, requesting slow tracks and generally giving me attitude because I don't play enough WCS friendly music. My answer is that I'm not trying to cater for a WCS audience.

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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    [COLOR="Teal"]
    • Dancing with beginner followers below a certain basic level is much less enjoyable and often frustrating.


    • It is usually very obvious why things are not working (as in what the follower is doing wrong to cause it).
      (and there appears no obvious connection to the quality of the lead)



    Therefore the question arises as to whether it is fair to apply standards from one dance, to what looks to be a considerably different situation.
    My opinion is that there really isn’t any reason to make someone else feel small or inferior by your general behaviour. Given the number of complaints about the UK WCS scene I’ve seen on the forum I’m sure there must be a number of people who fit that category. I’m also sure, knowing a number of “hard core” westies and having been a beginner in Twickenham myself a few years ago, that most of them range from being very friendly to being no less friendly than anywhere else. As with politicians, the most controversial characters seem to get the most publicity.

    As to dancing with beginners in WCS, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to accept that it can be a more frustrating experience than in MJ or Salsa (I can’t comment on AT sorry DB). WCS relies more on each partner having an understanding of the ground rules than the other two dances, and if all else fails it’s much more difficult to manhandle your partner into the right place than in those other two dances because there’s more travelling involved. That doesn’t excuse rude behaviour of course, but it is more frustrating, and everyone is only human.

    I think it’s quite unfair to judge one dance by the standards of another. It’s even more unfair to make only those comparisons which make your proffered dance seem superior. And finally, those comparisons are going to be made frequently while WCS and MJ have such a symbiotic* relationship.

    *Those who prefer to attack WCS may choose to read this as “parasitic” if they so desire.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: WCS - a newbie's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    *Those who prefer to attack WCS may choose to read this as “parasitic” if they so desire.
    Actually, I prefer to think of WCS as a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of modern jive, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like dancers.

    But you know me - always looking for the best side of everyone...

    I know it spoils it to say "that's a joke, people", but given it would be really offensive if people took it seriously, I'm putting in this disclaimer.
    Last edited by David Franklin; 22nd-July-2010 at 08:48 AM.

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