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Thread: Dance teaching in the UK compared to other countries

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    Dance teaching in the UK compared to other countries

    I feel like i'm butting in on a private argument here, but anyway here goes..
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Do you actually have any evidence of this? Or is it one of those assumptions that people who do actually do this tend to make?
    And I don't just mean from out of your friends, or even the people on the forum. I mean from the thousands of people who weekly take a Ceroc class in the UK. How many of those who wish to take their dancing further take classes outside of the Ceroc empire?
    Maybe i dont count, since i'm a forum member (only for a few weeks though), but dancing less than a year, so maybe my thoughts carry with what some are saying.
    I found that the Ceroc franchise model did what it said and i appreciate that. I could stay and do nothing more and have great social dancing.

    But I reached a stage about 2 months ago, where i realsied there were things I just wasn't getting from the standard Ceroc classes.
    Personally, i wanted to learn "how to dance" if that makes sense, not just how to complete mutlitudes of moves.
    I made a decision to look elsewhere to enhance my dancing outside of the standard "Ceroc" model; and actually found what I was looking for with a tip from a forum member.
    As a result of that "tip", I go to a class where i learn musicality, partner connection, playing with the music as you dance to name a few.

    Yesterday at that class of about 20, there were 4 other people who i see at one of my regular Ceroc venues ... !!

    Moved posts from the "Cult" and "Midlands Swing Open" threads to a new thread - DavidY
    Last edited by DavidY; 9th-June-2010 at 08:19 AM.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have found the biggest problem with "advanced classes" is that you can't control who comes to the class.
    There's a difference between can't, won't and decided not to. Ceroc UK has decided not to properly define any sort of standards for 'intermediate' and 'advanced' - a decision reflected in most of the MJ organisations I've seen. This results in all the things you describe. But make no mistake: this is a choice, not some imperative that can't be changed.

    Ceroc NZ made a different choice and did define these things, assessed people before they were allowed to move up, and enforced them in classes (I've seen teachers ask people to leave the class because they couldn't keep up). The result is a higher average standard in the classes allowing more complex and challenging moves to be taught.

    No doubt this approach will scare off a few people who don't want to learn to dance. But it will also retain a lot of people who do want to learn to dance better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    From what I have seen of advanced classes, it seems the moves are harder but no technique is being taught therefore it is even harder to led as well as follow
    Most of the 'advanced' classes I've been to in the UK have been intermediate moves made a bit longer and taught a bit faster. Occasionally, the moves are a little harder than intermediate; but not much.

    To be perfectly blunt, most of the moves I've been taught in advanced workshops in the UK are about the standard of the moves that I've been taught in the regular weekly intermediate classes in NZ (if not a little lower).

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Most of the 'advanced' classes I've been to in the UK have been intermediate moves made a bit longer and taught a bit faster. Occasionally, the moves are a little harder than intermediate; but not much.

    To be perfectly blunt, most of the moves I've been taught in advanced workshops in the UK are about the standard of the moves that I've been taught in the regular weekly intermediate classes in NZ (if not a little lower).
    How To Win Friends?

    I think that the the problem is that there is no clear way (in the UK) to define advanced dancers. That situation is unlikely to change without the introduction of examinations or some other way of assessing ability. This really doesn't fit with the overall premise of MJ as a social dance.

    My guess is that MJ is NZ more about levels/performance and is not as sociable as it is in the UK - although I base this assessment only on the evidence of the above post and the arrogance of the person posting

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    How To Win Friends?

    I think that the the problem is that there is no clear way (in the UK) to define advanced dancers.
    Does this need a seperate thread

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Does this need a seperate thread
    I think there's been threads on this subject in the past. Reading the above posts it seems that there is a general agreement that advanced lessons are difficult to run - of course that's a small sample and someone else might like to start a thread to disagree with us.

    Or start a thread on how much better classes and dancers are in NZ and how easy UK MJ lessons are for someone who has been to classes in NZ.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think there's been threads on this subject in the past. Reading the above posts it seems that there is a general agreement that advanced lessons are difficult to run - of course that's a small sample and someone else might like to start a thread to disagree with us.

    Or start a thread on how much better classes and dancers are in NZ and how easy UK MJ lessons are for someone who has been to classes in NZ.
    Andy
    Geoff was making a comment from his own observations and experiences. Have you been to any classes in NZ, maybe there standard of teaching / teaching model is better than ours in the UK.

    Remember there will always be teachers who are better than the rest due to their experiences, dancing back ground and who they were originally taught by.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Remember there will always be teachers who are better than the rest due to their experiences, dancing back ground and who they were originally taught by.
    Absolutely right. Some teachers are better than others and some teachers have a different focus from each other. Some are more concerned about being inclusive and teach slowly so that everyone gets it and others teach quickly and expect slow learners to give up and go elsewhere.

    It's the assumption that teaching in NZ is superior to teaching on the UK that I find offensive.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It's the assumption that teaching in NZ is superior to teaching on the UK that I find offensive.
    Andy that is not what I understood for geoff332's post. What I got from his post was that if organisers could take more control over who attended what level of class then the overall level of classes could improve.

    As far as my experience goes I have never come across this Gatekeeper type principle in UK MJ although I have in other dance forms, where the organisers do not allow participants to go to another level until they beleive they are able enough, rather than using vague number of lesson type criteria.

    Wheher or not this principle is better than an all inclusive one, taking all things into account, that is a matter of opinion but I would say that in terms of raising the overall ability level of general dance group this may well be the case.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Andy that is not what I understood for geoff332's post. What I got from his post was that if organisers could take more control over who attended what level of class then the overall level of classes could improve.
    I got this message from the first part of the post. However, the final paragraph was the one that seemed to compare the nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    To be perfectly blunt, most of the moves I've been taught in advanced workshops in the UK are about the standard of the moves that I've been taught in the regular weekly intermediate classes in NZ (if not a little lower).

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    There's a difference between can't, won't and decided not to. Ceroc UK has decided not to properly define any sort of standards for 'intermediate' and 'advanced' - a decision reflected in most of the MJ organisations I've seen. This results in all the things you describe. But make no mistake: this is a choice, not some imperative that can't be changed.

    Ceroc NZ made a different choice and did define these things, assessed people before they were allowed to move up, and enforced them in classes (I've seen teachers ask people to leave the class because they couldn't keep up). The result is a higher average standard in the classes allowing more complex and challenging moves to be taught.
    Interesting. I was talking a while back to a couple who teach Lindy in Stockholm, and they said something similar - at the weekly classes they teach, people who want to join the advanced classes are auditioned, and the criteria used are pretty strict. As for the results - well - the standard of dancing there is extremely high. At the majority of UK Lindy camps, for example, I wouldn't think twice about joining the most advanced classes. At the Swedish ones I've attended - well - I hope I get there one day...

    So your observations about standards sound about right to me. Do you find that this costs them numbers? Or do their retention rates compare well to the UK?

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Did you get Fletch and Gus to do the website or something? It just looks so unprofessional (or should that be unprofessioanl?). Just don't let Mr Scathe see it is all I can say!
    I'm not certain, but I think the WCS Dance Network site is managed by someone who is less able to spell than Fletch.

    And I had no trouble opening http://www.midlandswingopen.com/ - Although I do have a problem with the content. It's all about how great the USA is and how lucky we are to have a competition like the US competitions and how great it is that US competitors are coming to the UK. You really get the impression that the website is written by someone who thinks the UK has nothing to offer.

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm not certain, but I think the WCS Dance Network site is managed by someone who is less able to spell than Fletch.

    And I had no trouble opening http://www.midlandswingopen.com/ - Although I do have a problem with the content. It's all about how great the USA is and how lucky we are to have a competition like the US competitions and how great it is that US competitors are coming to the UK. You really get the impression that the website is written by someone who thinks the UK has nothing to offer.
    Quite frankly I welcome the fact that UK Dance organisers are prepared to fly over West Coast swing teachers from the West Coast. As has been mentioned a zillion times before on this forum the UK WCS scene is still relatively new compared to ummm the West Coast of USA. These teachers obviously think the UK has a lot to offer as otherwise they would not be coming over to teach (not compete).

    This was an excellent event last year - one of my favourites. Have booked again this year and am sure will be even bigger and better.

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And I had no trouble opening http://www.midlandswingopen.com/ - Although I do have a problem with the content. It's all about how great the USA is and how lucky we are to have a competition like the US competitions and how great it is that US competitors are coming to the UK. You really get the impression that the website is written by someone who thinks the UK has nothing to offer.
    Well we do have a habit of bigging up(I think that's the expression) these Americans when they come and visit.
    Having said that the performance by Kyle and Sarah in the video,in my opinion,is absolutely spell binding.
    I would be on top of the world if I had half of his ability.

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Well we do have a habit of bigging up(I think that's the expression) these Americans when they come and visit.
    In the last couple of days on this forum we've heard that MJ is better in NZ, Lindy is better in Sweden and now WCS is better in the USA.

    Is this British modesty or are we really that bad over here?

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In the last couple of days on this forum we've heard that MJ is better in NZ, Lindy is better in Sweden and now WCS is better in the USA.

    Is this British modesty or are we really that bad over here?
    Yep, were really Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaddddddddddddddddddddd

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In the last couple of days on this forum we've heard that MJ is better in NZ, Lindy is better in Sweden and now WCS is better in the USA.

    Is this British modesty or are we really that bad over here?
    Well

    WCS 'better' in the States? Well - the scene there, where it originated, has, to my knowledge been going just a tad longer than over here, so has had a teensy bit more time to develop. Could that perhaps be something to do with it?

    As for Swedish Lindy, and NZ MJ, I think those statements were explained quite nicely on t'other thread....

    Seriously though - in this country, there are a number of Lindy teachers who I'd travel a long way to learn from. We have some great teachers and dancers. However... 1) a significant proportion of these teachers are from overseas, and 2) said number is dwarfed by the number from Sweden, or from the US...

    So make of that what you will.

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Is this British modesty or are we really that bad over here?
    No - we are just waiting for you to tell everyone how much better your classes are than anyone else's

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    No - we are just waiting for you to tell everyone how much better your classes are than anyone else's
    I'm afraid that my view of modern jive teaching has moderated over the years. I've come to the conclusion that it's not about the axis of better to worse. It's about the social axis - and concerns about "better" are tending towards anti-social.

    And talking about the better/worse axis and then saying that it's all better overseas is even more anti-social.

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    Re: Midland Swing Open 2010 - 17th-19th September

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And talking about the better/worse axis and then saying that it's all better overseas is even more anti-social.
    Why so? I want to be the best social dancer I can possibly be. If there are places overseas that can help me achieve that better than anywhere in this country, why would it be anti-social to say so?

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Geoff was making a comment from his own observations and experiences. Have you been to any classes in NZ, maybe there standard of teaching / teaching model is better than ours in the UK.
    I want to be really clear: I do not think the standard of the teachers is higher in NZ. My experience is that the standard of teaching is higher. The difference is purely due to the approach taken. This means that the standard if attendee is higher, which therefore allows the teachers to teach to a higher standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It's the assumption that teaching in NZ is superior to teaching on the UK that I find offensive.
    My comment wasn't an assumption. It was an observation, based on my experience. You can be offended all you like (I really, really don't care), but it doesn't make you right or me wrong.

    Denying that my observations have any merit is something I might be more offended about: are you suggesting I am wrong? Or lying? If the former, I'd appreciate some soft of proof. Preferably based on your experience of classes run by Ceroc NZ ... when did you last attend one? If the latter... hmmm. It might be nice to provide some sort of proof then, too. Or an apology. Particularly for calling me arrogant when you have no knowledge of whether I am right or not. If you don't have any proof, then that's cool - but I'll just ignore you offence.

    I did not say the teachers were better in NZ than the UK. Nor did I mean to imply that the better dancers in one location are better than the others. I did mean to say that the moves taught to me in advanced Ceroc UK workshops in the UK were of around the same standard as I am taught in regular, weekly intermediate classes in Ceroc NZ. To be even more specific: the most recent 'advanced' workshop I attended in the UK was one taught by Phil Webb on dips and drops. All of the drops in this workshop, even the most difficult, I have been previously taught in intermediate classes in NZ. In the workshop, most of the attendees were struggling with these moves; with the same moves taught in an intermediate class in NZ, most people would be able to execute them perfectly well.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Do you find that this costs them numbers? Or do their retention rates compare well to the UK?
    It depends how you define retention. in terms of numbers, the venue's usually pretty full. The last time I went to a Friday night at the central venue I'm talking about, the floor was packed. The big intermediate classes, three nights a week, are full. They do a pretty good job in retaining experienced dancers. However, if you're talking about encouraging and retaining the less naturally gifted dancers, then they don't do as good a job.

    Things are changing in NZ - my real experience is a few years ago, so I might be a little off the money now. Although the last intermediate class I attended in NZ was in February this year; the last Ceroc UK advanced workshop was a few weeks ago.

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