View Poll Results: My regular or most recent Modern Jive teacher ...

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • .. sometimes or often tells me what I should be doing with my feet.

    15 75.00%
  • .. never tells me what my feet should be doing.

    1 5.00%
  • .. says "there is no footwork".

    4 20.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 140

Thread: "There is no footwork"

  1. #101
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    Oh dear, I rather wish I didn't join in the discussion now...!

    Not quite, Straycat. I'd say "8" on the eigth beat and then we all start moving (stepping/sliding back during the next beat) such that we are all on the back foot (weight transferred) on the "1" - IE two beats, one count.
    But there's only one beat (half a count) between the eighth beat (count '8') and the first beat. At least in the version that Andy's been decrying, there's two beats, because 8 comes on the 7.

    As an aside, my favoured lead-in is the Lindy standard '5 6 7 8' on the last four beats of an eight beat mini-phrase. Which has several advantages, one of which is that you're actually counting with the music. But then - I don't (and wouldn't) teach MJ.

  2. #102
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    If I was doing this kind of count, which I'm not btw, I'd start saying 5 on beat 1 of the 8 and end up saying & on beat 8. I think you need an & before the 1.
    Agreed. Which is why I say I hope I've misunderstood.

  3. #103
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    Oh dear, I rather wish I didn't join in the discussion now...!

    Not quite, Straycat. I'd say "8" on the eigth beat and then we all start moving (stepping/sliding back during the next beat) such that we are all on the back foot (weight transferred) on the "1" - IE two beats, one count.

    No doubt some of you will want to tell me how wrong I am!
    I think that we all get it wrong sometimes. Remember that the person who never made a mistake never made anything.

    I think that Todd has confused the beat count and what some people call the "dancing count" or even the "Ceroc Count"*. The other thing I think Todd has confused is a weight transfer with a step and a step-in-place weight transfer. Consider a rock-step, there is only one step, but there's two weight tranfers, one on each beat with the front foot stepping in place.

    There is no "Count" at Ceroc: just a Lord...

    .. of Darkness

  4. #104
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    410
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post

    Hmmm, and here in highlights my miss-understanding..! I took your original statement of "Step every beat" literally (like the chap I mention above). What you have now described is similar to what I also teach.
    Maybe I should say 'weight transfer every beat'. Anyway, the video is hopefully easier to understand.

    Hopefully is also obvious why by always rocking back on my left, and the follower on her right, we automatically end up in the mirrored 'back on the outside foot' position almost universally taught.

    To repeat: I'm not suggesting you have to dance Modern Jive with this footwork, just that its the easiest and most usefull pattern to teach initially.

  5. #105
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    To repeat: I'm not suggesting you have to dance Modern Jive with this footwork, just that its the easiest and most usefull pattern to teach initially.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And I'm very unimpressed with the teaching of complex footwork to beginners. There is nice, simple, basic footwork that fits just about every modern jive move. Why make it complicated?

  6. #106
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    I haven't tried, but have observed plenty of people who do step on every beat (much like I described and thought your original post would encourage) and look like they are marching. I don't, personaly, like it so won't teach it. Whether the marching people have be taught that way or simply started doing it for themselves is another question!
    Was teaching a workshop yesterday where we covered a lot of footwork issues, and I had occasion to think about this some more.

    I don't think the marching issue is caused by footwork timing (eg stepping on every beat) - I think it's just down to how people step. Here's something to try.

    Stand in front of a mirror. Pick up one foot. Put it down. Pick up the other. Put it down. Keep doing this in time to a steady rhythm, with little or no body movement. You'll look, chances are, like you're marching.

    Now for something slightly different. Make sure you're standing with your feet hip-width apart, weight slightly forward, toward the balls of your feet. Relax your knees / hips / ankles a little to sink a couple of inches down into the floor. Weight on the right leg, and straighten it - which will raise the left foot off the floor. Relax down with the right, to put the left down. Straighten the left to pick the right up. Do that to a steady rhythm, keeping it smooth.

    So ... assuming I've conveyed this well enough, you now have two different ways of stepping, to the same simple beat, which look completely different from each other - and the latter technique (which forms the basis for the Lindy 'bounce') won't look remotely like marching - try imagining that on a parade ground....

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    As I said, in ballroom, you start with where and when, then move to how. In most MJ venues, you're usually told when, but where and how are left fairly vague.
    This is why I prefer to start with 'how', and move on to when & where. If you get the initial technique right (or, at least, the initial foundations thereof), when & where become much easier. If you teach when & where without that initial technique, people get invested in their own 'how', and find it much harder to put that technique in later.

  7. #107
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Was teaching a workshop yesterday where we covered a lot of footwork issues, and I had occasion to think about this some more.

    I don't think the marching issue is caused by footwork timing (eg stepping on every beat) - I think it's just down to how people step.
    I was also teaching a workshop yesterday - although it didn't get me thinking any more. Of course it's about the way you do it.

    The workshop I taught yesterday was about the basics of MJ. Once I've discussed the music with people I get them walking around the room to the beat using correct MJ basic footwork as I teach it. The surprising thing is how many people do a sort of kick on the beat instead of a step on the beat. I fix this by getting them to stamp on every beat and then change this to a stamp on the 1 - which also helps them to find the 1. Then I tell them not to stamp when they're dancing and just walk to the beat or step in place.

    Just because you walk it doesn't mean you have to march. Otherwise we'd see people marching through Tesco!

    Look at Amir's video. Catriona is transferring her weight on every beat in the open hold. She's not marching.

  8. #108
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Just because you walk it doesn't mean you have to march. Otherwise we'd see people marching through Tesco!
    No indeed. But put newcomers into what they feel is a 'dance' context, and ask them to do the simplest thing (eg walk around the room in time to some music), and they are very unlikely to walk the way they normally do - they'll try to 'dance' it somehow. I've seen it, you've seen it - in fact, I'm sure I've seen you comment on the phenomenon on here before - and we've probably most of us done it when we were new to dance. If you ask them to step on the spot in time to music, you're very likely to see some kind of marching look.

    There's many ways to overcome this - you've outlined your way, and I've outlined a very specific exercise which I use to teach a lot of Lindy footwork. I was simply illustrating to todd that the 'marching' phenomenon isn't a product of timing or placement, but of technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Look at Amir's video. Catriona is transferring her weight on every beat in the open hold. She's not marching.
    I think I missed the part where anyone suggested she was...
    However - she's not 'just' walking, either. There's a lot of technique hidden in that slinky glide of hers...

  9. #109
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I think I missed the part where anyone suggested she was...
    However - she's not 'just' walking, either. There's a lot of technique hidden in that slinky glide of hers...
    I think that there was a suggestion that stepping or changing weight on every beat is marching.

    You are right. There's years of training required to be able to stand like Catriona, let alone walk like her. The good news is that anybody attempting to copy that movement is very unlikely to be accused of "marching".

  10. #110
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Falmouth
    Posts
    117
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to post and try to put me straight..!

    Secondly, I'd like to apologise!

    I've just been through (physically, counting & to music) what I do (in the warm up) and taken time to think about the timing that I do week in week out (in comparison to what I posted the other day) and have now realised that I managed to totally confuse myself!!!

    For some reason I was thinking about the step back (every other beat) but completely ignored the fact that there is a following step forward. IE a step on every beat (with associated weight transfer, etc)...

    And there was me thinking you guys were trying to over complicate a very simple thing

  11. #111
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    194
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Ah I shouldn't even get involved but....

    I've been finding recently that sometimes, sometracks are very well suited to stepping on ever beat.

    And some are just really, really not.

    Unless your going to restrict the musical tempo or phrase of modern jive music, i'm not sure what the merit of persribed foot work is?

  12. #112
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Ah I shouldn't even get involved but....

    I've been finding recently that sometimes, sometracks are very well suited to stepping on ever beat.

    And some are just really, really not.
    Can you give some examples of tracks that are not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Unless your going to restrict the musical tempo or phrase of modern jive music, i'm not sure what the merit of persribed foot work is?
    I don't think the thrust of the debate has been about setting any footwork in stone.

    Footwork is a crucial part of your toolkit of techniques for moving to, and interpreting music, not to mention connecting with your partner.
    To my mind, the earlier one begins to gain a good grounding in that area, the easier one will find it to improve and learn new moves & techniques.

  13. #113
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Unless your going to restrict the musical tempo or phrase of modern jive music, i'm not sure what the merit of persribed foot work is?
    I think that the tempo of music limited in MJ. I'm not sure anybody disgrees with this. People do have a difference of opinion about where the range begins and ends, but I don't think anybody says that the tempo is unrestricted.

    The "merit" of the basic footwork is simply that, it's the basic. It's what you learn when you're a beginner. After that you can have any variations that you can lead and that the lady can follow.

    However, I have observed that most ladies stick with the basic, no matter how long they've been dancing.

  14. #114
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    194
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Ok last two songs I down loaded.

    Alica keys try sleeping with a broken heart.



    And

    Keri hillson - I like



    I think these are jiveable anyway, I haven't actually tried.

    Both tracks have fairly 'broken' beats.

    I mean you could 'walk through them'. But stepping on them might feel a little 'odd'.

    Now LL cool J -Pheomenon



    You can walk around to all day.

    Try this - calvin harris - you used to hold me (nero remix).



    Again I've don't know if this is actually jiveable, but just try walking to it as an exercise.
    It's just uncomfortable fast or uncomfortable slow. You really got to get up on your toes to make it work.

    I'm not anti foot work. I'm just making an observation.

  15. #115
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bracknell, United
    Posts
    194
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    jim

    you're first 2 selections are lovely tracks to dance to

    to be honest, I got bored with the other two - neither made it past about 30 seconds, which is probably how long it would take to empty a dance floor (IMHO)

  16. #116
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Nr Cambridge
    Posts
    3,696
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Now LL cool J -Pheomenon
    I LOVE this track, it has a wicked groove but is also very repetitive and I think would grow tiresome on an MJ floor. I also love the lyric it contains 'Boning in the mirror with my cubans on'

  17. #117
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    you're first 2 selections are lovely tracks to dance to
    What dance are you doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Alica keys try sleeping with a broken heart.
    83bpm
    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Keri hillson - I like
    125bpm

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Both tracks have fairly 'broken' beats.
    Both tracks are performed at different speeds. The beat is never "broken", whatever that means. It keeps going so you could dance to it so long as you chose a dance that suited the speed of the track.

    The Alica Keys track, at 83bpm is too slow for MJ. Therefore you will have trouble doing the basic MJ footwork. I would have no problem with dancing MJ to the Keri Hillson track - however, there is a bit where the drum stops beating to mark the beat that might confuse beginners. Of course the beat is still there, it's just that the drum stops beating it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Now LL cool J -Pheomenon
    105bpm - Still a bit slow for main-stream MJ, but a danceable speed for MJ. Speaking personally I like the interesting bit of the music to be the melody, not the meaning of the lyrics. For me this kind of music is like street poetry to a beat and a bit of a tune. Who wants to dance to the beat of poetry?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    calvin harris - you used to hold me (nero remix).
    130bpm but over 6 mins long and a bit repetitive. You could jive to it but I can't see why you'd want to.

  18. #118
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    This is why I prefer to start with 'how', and move on to when & where. If you get the initial technique right (or, at least, the initial foundations thereof), when & where become much easier. If you teach when & where without that initial technique, people get invested in their own 'how', and find it much harder to put that technique in later.
    The problem in ballroom is 'how' takes years to learn and you can't really split out the how from the where... for example, to learn a simple waltz step, you have to know the footwork pattern before you can start to learn how to roll your weight over your foot to create the rise and fall.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Both tracks have fairly 'broken' beats.
    Both tracks use a bit of syncopation and one of them uses a rest to emphasise a beat (I think it's the 3, but I wasn't listening that closely). This is musical variation, that has nothing to do with the structure of the song.

    All four follow a simple pop beat and structure - which makes them like 99% of all ceroc songs. As Andy pointed out, there may be some issues with the tempo of some tracks.

    I suspect there may be a confusion between the basic beat and structure of the song with the musical variation that happens within that structure. The point of a basic pattern in a dance is to fit with the basic beat and structure. The basic patterns people have referred to here all work with a simple 4/4 beat - which all of those tracks have.

    Musicality starts with the beat. But the next step is to find and dance to the structure of the song (4 sets of 8 for most pop songs - including your examples). Then you have dancing to the musical and lyrical variations. But all of this starts with dancing to the beat and a basic footwork pattern in MJ lays that foundation.

  19. #119
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bracknell, United
    Posts
    194
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    What dance are you doing?
    I suppose u'd call it Smooth Jive, Andy.

    Is this acceptable?

  20. #120
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    I suppose u'd call it Smooth Jive, Andy.

    Is this acceptable?
    I'm afraid I call "Smooth Jive" by it's proper name. That name is Modern Jive. The reason some people use "smooth" is to differentiate it from Modern Jive done badly in a jerky, frame-breaky, bouncy kinda way.

    I don't think you can do basic Modern Jive to a track that's 83 bpm. And you'd have a real problem doing the LeRoc variation of MJ to a track that's 83bpm. Stepping on every second beat would mean you'd be changing your weight at 41.5bpm - who remembers the opening sequence to "Six Million Dollar Man"?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. "There are no gays in Iran"
    By David Bailey in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 27th-September-2007, 09:13 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •